Dying with Dignity Bill 2020: Second Stage [Private Members] Dail Éireann — 2020-10-01 ============================================================ David Cullinane (SF), Waterford I thank the Acting Chairman for the advice. I commend Deputy Gino Kenny on moving this Bill and ensuring that we have this important and, in many ways, historic debate. I also commend the former Minister of State, John Halligan, who, as people know, had done a significant amount of work on this issue, as well as all the campaigners Deputy Gino Kenny mentioned, who have been doing a lot of work on this issue, understanding its complexity and advocating their position from a compassionate perspective. For obvious reasons, it is important that we are clear on what the Bill does. It is a divisive Bill in the sense that there are opposing views. I am respectful of all of the views and opinions. Personally, I am in favour of this Bill and of the principle behind it. However, I also understand that there are people in this House and outside it who have genuine and legitimate concerns that need to be responded to. The Bill provides for assisted dying in the event of terminal illness only. Assisted dying would only be permitted after assessment by the attending medical practitioner and an independent medical practitioner. Before countersigning a patient's declaration, they must verify that the patient is terminally ill, has the capacity to make the decision to end his or her own life and has a clear and settled intention to end his or her life which was reached voluntarily, on an informed basis, without coercion or duress. There is a clause in the Bill which protects conscientious objectors, and rightly so, providing that no medical practitioner would be obliged to provide assisted dying. There are amendments I would want to make to the Bill. These relate to a waiting period for reflection, psychiatric evaluations, hearing more from experienced medical practitioners and confirmation that criteria are met by a High Court judge, a medical person and a layperson. There are amendments that I would make to this Bill and my party will make. I also accept that we need proper scrutiny of this Bill. While I will support the Private Member's Bill and oppose the Government's amendment, if there is a special committee set up, of course it should do its job. We all have to be responsible and compassionate in how we approach this issue. My party and I will certainly play our part in all of that. I want to make a point that is very personal. I have heard some people already make the argument that somehow this will undermine palliative care. Assisted dying is not a replacement for palliative care. In January 2018, my mam went for what she thought was a routine test. She went on her own to a hospital. Unfortunately, she got bad news that she most likely had cancer. Within a couple of weeks of getting that news, she ended up in St. James's Hospital and had most of her stomach removed. She fought a long battle over a number of months. My family and her friends followed and supported her in that battle every step of the way. Every single day was a battle. In November 2018, we thought she was through the worst of it but the cancer was still there and it was growing. She ended up back in St. James's Hospital and was there for five or six weeks. She could not eat. We had a fair idea what was happening but we were hoping it was something that could be dealt with. On Christmas Eve 2018, she went for surgery. I remember I was putting my two kids to bed on Christmas Eve when I got a phone call to say she was dying, the cancer was back and she had a few short weeks to live. I immediately got into the car, drove to the hospital and saw my mam. I had spoken to her on the phone before she went for her surgery and she was full of hope. The first thing I noticed was that the life was gone out of her, I could see it in her eyes. It was obviously an awful experience. It was in a very small hospital room. She was eventually transferred to a palliative care unit. We did not have one in either Waterford or the south east at the time. The unit was in Harold's Cross. She got absolutely tremendous care. They did every single thing that was humanly possible to make sure that she did not die in pain. That was the one thing she kept saying to us. She was very brave all the way through. I am sure people have their own experiences and similar stories. My mam did not want to die in pain. The staff did absolutely everything. There are, however, people for whom palliative care simply does not do that because of the nature of the illness. That is the point. Then it is a matter of personal choice. We should face up to that. We can name the diseases although I am not going to name them. There are people who have those diseases who would make a decision not to end their lives, even if the legislation was there. That is the case and should be respected. Equally, there are people who would make a different choice if they were in that situation and were facing into what we can only describe as a horrible death. There should absolutely have to be safeguards to protect vulnerable people, make sure individuals make this decision voluntarily and that it is done in the most sensitive and compassionate way and in the most legally sound way, with all of the advice that can be possibly given and with a cooling off period. In those circumstances, compassion and humanity tell me that we should allow people to have that opportunity and that choice. I know that is going to be difficult for some people and that this debate is going to be difficult. I genuinely hope that this debate does not turn into what we have seen with previous debates on issues that were, perhaps, similar. Notwithstanding differences I will have with some people in this Chamber, I sincerely understand their point of view and that it raises moral and ethical issues. People have already contacted me. We are all being lobbied by individuals with different views and perspectives. I will oppose the Government's amendment but not because I do not believe there should be scrutiny or full examination. I agree with Deputy Farrell when he says that this will take time. It should take time if we are sincere about this. I am of the view that the author of the Bill is sincere about it. He has said he wants scrutiny of and proper debate on this issue. If we are sincere about it, we have to give it the time it deserves. I am glad it is the Oireachtas doing it and not the Citizens' Assembly. I am not against the Citizens' Assembly but we are the legislators. We are elected to Dáil Éireann and we have to make decisions. Ultimately, the people who make the decisions are the ones who should carry out the scrutiny. We are the ones who should conduct the discussions on this issue. I want to hear from everybody. I want to hear all views. I will go in with an open mind. I have already seen that this is not as black and white as sometimes we can make it. There are grey areas and we have to accept that. It is not going to be straightforward. A lot of work will need to be done. In that spirit, I commend the author of the Bill. I genuinely want to speak to those people who have done a huge amount of work on this issue over the past number of years, those who have lost loved ones and those who have battled in the to the courts to get this issue dealt with. The fact we are debating it here today is a step forward, even if the Government amendment is passed and even if there is a committee that takes longer than some of us might like. It is a big, genuine and good step forward on this issue. The tone in which I wish to see the debate conducted is a passionate and understanding one that reflects the diversity of opinions and views and that whatever we settle on will be settled upon. Therefore, let us have that debate over the next number of months. I certainly look forward to engaging with people in this Chamber and outside it. --- Source: Houses of the Oireachtas. Licensed under CC BY 4.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/). The Official Report is revised after first publication; the fetch timestamp below identifies the version quoted. Record URI: https://data.oireachtas.ie/akn/ie/debateRecord/dail/2020-10-01/debate/main Retrieved: 2026-08-14T04:48:38+00:00 Sitting date: 2020-10-01