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Dail Éireann · 2023-04-18

Cabinet Committees

10 contributions · 9 speakers · 1,425 words

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Summary of this debate

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The alliance notes that the Maskey report on child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in Kerry, and the Mental Health Commission interim report, revealed just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to failings in the provision of mental health services for children and young people. When young people reached 15, they were then able to access young adult books for those aged 15 to 17. We must all be careful about advising people that they should overhold.

In some cases, people will overhold with the permission of their landlord, while in other cases they will not. It is important that those campaigning in this area ensure they do not fail to advise people of the potential risks if they do overhold.

Built by scoring every sentence in the debate on how distinctive its language is, then quoting the highest-scoring ones back word for word and in the order spoken. Nothing is paraphrased or invented — if a sentence appears here, it was said in the chamber. Drawn from 1,425 words across 10 contributions by 9 speakers.

Most used terms in this debate

How often each word appears across the whole debate, ranked by how distinctive it is to this debate rather than common to all parliamentary language.

overhold 10
eviction 8
people 27
children 15
young 12
committee 13
adult 7
health 13
evictions 5
overholding 3
books 5
secondment 3

The full debate

All 10 contributions, start to finish, in the order they were made.

FG Leo Varadkar

Tógfaidh mé Ceisteanna Uimh. 12 go 20, go huile, le chéile.

Cabinet committees meet as appropriate according to their work schedules. The Cabinet committee on health has met twice so far this year. The Cabinet committee on housing has met three times, most recently yesterday. The first meeting on the Cabinet committee on children and education will take place shortly. The committee on environment and climate change has met once and is scheduled to meet again on Thursday. The committee on EU and international affairs has held one meeting, and the committee on the humanitarian response to Ukraine has met three times. The Government co-ordination committee has met ten times and is scheduled to meet again on Monday. Other committees will meet in the coming weeks.

FG Bernard Durkan

The reason for this inquiry is to identify issues of a particular importance that arise from time to time and the need to respond by bringing forward the relevant meetings of the committees, if necessary, to deal with these. In particular, I mention housing, which is an ongoing issue that needs to be dealt with very regularly. I also mention health, which is an obvious one because we need to get back on a straight and level path with a view to identifying the issues at an early stage and with a view to resolution. The third issue relates to education and school places and transport. School transport has been an issue of particular importance throughout the country for quite a number of years but without resolution.

PBP Richard Boyd Barrett

I said to the Taoiseach earlier that I believe his decision to lift the eviction ban was cruel, heartless, and stupid. He obviously intends, for now at least, to persist with it but we in People Before Profit intend to persist in campaigning for its reinstatement because thousands of people are facing eviction and potential homelessness. Our view is that people in this situation, where there is nowhere else to go, where there is no council housing available to most and where there is no affordable rental or purchase, should overhold rather than simply walk into homelessness. I refer to the people in Tathony House. A woman I am dealing with was on the radio over the weekend. She is now overholding for several days. She is working and has children and so on. Are people not right to overhold in that situation if the Government has not provided the alternatives for them, either to buy their homes so they can stay in them, or provide them with council or affordable housing? Does the Taoiseach think people are right in that situation to overhold or does he seriously expect that they should walk into homelessness if he has failed to give them an alternative of secure or affordable housing? I certainly think people will have no choice. If the Government refuses to reinstate the ban, people have little choice but to overhold until it actually delivers the alternatives.

PBP Bríd Smith

My question is on housing as well. A couple of weeks ago I raised with the Taoiseach the role of gardaí in illegal evictions. There was a very shocking piece on Twitter which Members may have seen. A Dr. Raheel was threatened with an illegal eviction by a very angry and violent landlord who used a chainsaw or some kind of a cutting mechanism, which looked pretty lethal, to get through the door and then threatened him and his family. When the gardaí were called, they said this eviction was a civil matter. I explained at the time that I had the same experience, mainly as a councillor. When illegal evictions were taking place and you rang the gardaí, they said it was a civil matter. However, when is civil not civil when a landlord with an electric saw chases after a doctor's family or, as in the case I witnessed, when a bunch of thugs came with hacksaws, machetes and hammers to evict two young men from a house in Kilmainham some years ago? These scenes will be repeated.

Given that the eviction ban has been lifted and that there are a lot of residual issues out there, will the Taoiseach clarify if new guidance, instructions and a protocol are to be given to gardaí to do more than to say to somebody who is frightened and terrified for their own life and the lives of their family members that this is a civil matter? I think the Garda Representative Association or one such body has already asked the Government to do this.

LAB Ivana Bacik

When will the Cabinet committee on health be reviewing or considering the report by Maura Quinn into the proposed secondment of the former Chief Medical Officer, CMO, to Trinity College Dublin? In our view, the report raises a number of serious issues about dysfunction at the heart of Government. First, there was a total lack of proper processes in the appointment as outlined. Second, there was a failure of ministerial accountability where it appears the Minister for Health did not know about, or was not made aware of, what was going on with very senior officials in Government. Most critically, it reveals serious accusations being made by senior civil servants against each other at the heart and centre of Government. This raises particular concerns at this time, especially when so many postgraduate researchers across third level are having difficulty in accessing funding. It is unedifying to see these findings. Will the health committee be considering the report, and if so, when?

FF Anne Rabbitte

The Minister understands the Deputy's desire to ensure that the SETU can achieve its full potential and contribute to the economic and social development of the south east. He will see that there are opportunities for the TU sector to contribute to initial teacher education, as outlined. The Minister hopes that he will understand that her Department's policy consideration is that it is important to ensure our student teachers have excellent preparation that has the advantage of a critical mass in high-quality research and teaching. This policy reflects the findings of international experts on how the structures of initial teacher education in Ireland can best ensure high-quality education. The objective in publishing the policy statement is to improve the overall quality of initial teacher education. This will involve practical measures that will improve available evidence and enhance the already strong collaboration within the sector. It requires collaboration within the sector and also collaboration between Departments and State bodies, such as the Teaching Council. It will ensure that our newly qualified teachers have the necessary tools to support them in their aim of inspiring, enlightening and preparing pupils and students to succeed in life.

Following the recent publication of the initial teacher education policy, statement correspondence has been received from the SETU and a reply is being drafted. Contrary to the Deputy's comments, I cannot look into the crystal ball to see beyond what the Minister has told me. There is no outcome. The draft reply is being produced.

SF Mary Lou McDonald

The Children's Rights Alliance recently published its annual report card on progress for children under the current programme for Government. The performance in delivering adequate youth mental health received the lowest grade for a second year in a row. The alliance notes that the Maskey report on child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in Kerry, and the Mental Health Commission interim report, revealed just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to failings in the provision of mental health services for children and young people. In the year to September 2022, the number of children waiting on their first appointment with CAMHS almost doubled. Figures released to my colleague Deputy Ward last week tell us that waiting lists for CAMHS in Kildare, west Wicklow, west Dublin, the south city and the south west are up 260% since 2020.

It is deeply concerning that very vulnerable children and young people are not able to access an initial appointment. Children and young people continue to be inappropriately admitted to adult psychiatric facilities that are not designed to support their needs. It is welcome that the number of children admitted to adult units last year fell but it remains deeply alarming that Government has decided it will not legislate against this inappropriate practice despite it not aligning - in fact, conflicting absolutely - with the rights of children. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider the Government's position on this matter and to legislate against this archaic practice.

FF Éamon Ó Cuív

Beidh sé deacair. Mar is eol don Leas-Cheann Comhairle, tá an obair seo ag teastáil go práinneach ar an mbóthar seo agus caithfidh mé cás láidir a dhéanamh.

The N59, as a coastal national secondary route, was included in Transport 21. The idea was that those parts of the country that were far away from national primary routes would have decent national secondary routes to service them. There are 113 km of N59 in Galway – 80 km from Galway to Clifden and 33 km from Clifden to Leenane. Priority was given to the section from Galway to Clifden. Ten years ago, planning permission was given to upgrade the N59 from Oughterard to Maam Cross, but there was a condition on the planning permission, namely, that method statements had to be agreed with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, which is part of the Minister of State's Department and not an independent agency. There was a standoff over these method statements for years. Eventually, agreement was given to do a section of the road from Bunnakill to Maam Cross, which was completed in 2021.

Based on the success of that upgrade of the road – anyone who travels it knows how safe the new section of road is compared with the other section, which is highly dangerous – method statements were submitted to the Department in December 2021. The method statement in respect of the topographical survey was confirmed in July 2022.

Equally, however, new instructions have been issued by the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, to libraries changing the procedure whereby young people can get books out. As it was previously, once a young person went from being aged under 12 to being over 12, he or she was then able to access books in the young adult section for those aged from 12 to 14. When young people reached 15, they were then able to access young adult books for those aged 15 to 17. This policy has now been changed. Young people now have to get express, written permission from their parents to move on and to be able to access books. This seems to be an incredible concession to these far-right activists and giving them precisely what they want. It is creating a scenario whereby a young person could have, for example, a homophobic parent who does not want him or her accessing age-appropriate material, and let me stress this is what we are talking about. Has the Government discussed this matter? Surely this policy should be reversed and young people should be able to get age-appropriate material in the libraries.

PBP Mick Barry

Good question.

FG Leo Varadkar

I thank the Deputies for their questions. Starting with Deputy Durkan's question on school transport, I agree with him regarding how important this issue is, especially in rural areas, for children accessing school. We have done a lot in the last couple of years to improve the situation. Fees have been reduced significantly for school transport, which has been a big benefit for families struggling with the cost of living. We have also expanded the programme to tens of thousands more children. We are now also thinking ahead and working towards the September period to ensure that improvements are put in place before then. While this is not a major issue in my constituency, I would struggle to count the number of phone calls I get from other members of my parliamentary party in the run up to September concerning children unable to get tickets or places on a bus. We just have to ensure we do better again this year than in previous years.

Regarding the issue of overholding, I am very conscious of remarks made by the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, in recent weeks. We must all be careful about advising people that they should overhold. I have never advised anyone to overhold. I should make this clear. People do sometimes overhold. It does depend on individual circumstances. This is not new. Long before there were any temporary eviction bans and before anyone even called for eviction bans, overholding was an issue. In some cases, people will overhold with the permission of their landlord, while in other cases they will not. We must, however, ensure that anyone considering doing this gets advice and also knows the risks involved, because there are risks. It can go against people in terms of their record as tenants and potentially they could also have a judgment against them.

It is important that those campaigning in this area ensure they do not fail to advise people of the potential risks if they do overhold. I encourage the Deputies from People Before Profit, and others, if they are telling people they should overhold or encouraging them to do so to ensure, and they have a duty of care in this regard in my view, that those people whom they are dealing with know the risks as well and the potential consequences for them in respect of getting future tenancies or other things that could be held against them. There is a duty of care in this regard. People should not be used as pawns in political campaigns. They are individuals and families and the Deputies have a particular duty of care in this regard and I hope they will fulfil it.

Regarding the role of the Garda, it is to keep the peace and to enforce the law. Evictions are a civil matter. I do not know the details of the situation Deputy Smith described. There could be more to the story than we are being told. It certainly sounds to me, however, like a breach of the law and it is the role of the Garda to enforce the law. It is as simple as that. Again, we had illegal evictions long before there were ever temporary winter eviction bans. Illegal evictions are illegal, and it is the role of the Garda to enforce the law in that regard. I do not know if any new guidelines are being issued but I will make inquiries with the Minister for Justice in this regard.

On the Quinn report, this has been published and the Government has accepted its recommendations. No findings were made against any individual. It is important to say that the secondment did not proceed. This was stopped before it happened, if that makes any sense. It is clear that we need to put in new procedures. When a job is advertised, it is a very simple process. The job is advertised, people apply for it, candidates are short-listed and interviewed and the best person gets the job. Secondments are more complicated and this was to be a secondment. I regret, by the way, that it did not happen. Dr. Holohan would have made an excellent professor in Trinity College Dublin. He would have been an addition to the State by staying in the public service in that way and giving us his advice on public health and leadership. It did not happen, for various reasons that are clear in the report. I regret it did not happen. Nobody comes out of this well. It is important, therefore, that we have proper procedures around secondments in future. They have been done on an ad hoc basis until now and that is not right and not fair on the people involved either. I do not know if the Joint Committee on Health is going to consider this matter. It is up to the committee to choose to do so. I understand the Secretary General of the Department of Health is appearing before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach during the week, but this is obviously a different committee on a different matter.

Turning to the issue concerning libraries, this has not been discussed by the Government, or at least not at Cabinet. I am not aware of any particular issues being brought to our attention in that regard, although I am concerned by what I have heard here in the Chamber. I would despair if we ended up going back to a world where people are told certain books are banned or children are not allowed to see material that is appropriate to their age. I see what is going on in the United States and I hope we are not going to start to see that happen here.

Regarding children in adult mental health beds, my understanding is that the number of children admitted to adult beds has been falling consistently over the past couple of years. It has been trending downwards and we are making progress in this regard. There is a reluctance to legislate against it. It has been explained to me that there are circumstances where having a 15-year-old or a 16-year-old in a single room in an adult ward closer to home is better than having him or her in a paediatric ward 200 miles or 300 miles away from his or her parents and community. There is a reluctance to legislate because legislation is so black and white and cannot take into account individual circumstances where, perhaps, an older teenager, an adolescent, might be better off being nearer his or her parents, family and community than in a paediatric unit 200 miles or 300 miles away.