I realise this is very difficult and the Bill runs to almost 200 pages. This is why we really should have a separate Report Stage. If the Minister were to come back with something on this that would make me want to table a specific amendment on Report Stage, by passing such an amendment now, we are not likely to get to Report Stage or certainly will not be in a position to table an amendment. To be of assistance to the Minister, I am happy to spell out my concern. I apologise if I imagine things wrongly. I understa…

What would happen if the person who supplies the single genetic link dies after the embryo has been created? If a surrogacy arrangement has been made and the embryo has been created in the case of, let us say, a single intending parent who was obviously by definition the genetic parent of that child, what happens to the embryo in that situation?

If he does not, he is the one who dies and he is the single intending parent, what happens to the embryo?

If he is a single intending parent, it is his genetic child and the embryo is created, what happens if he dies? If a single male intending parent provides a genetic-----

He engages in a surrogacy-----

What happens to the embryo?

This is the section of the Bill that covers the safety of children. It states that: "The AHRRA shall not approve... unless it is satisfied... that the relevant person, and each other relevant person, does not present a potential significant risk of harm or neglect". This to some degree connects back to the amendment proposed by Senator Keogan and me that would have provided that: (a) No one who was convicted of a child sexual offence either in or outside the State shall be allowed to participate in or avail of surr…

As I was listening to Senator Seery Kearney, I wondered whether Tusla has an unblemished record when it comes to the vindication of children’s welfare and safety. That is a helpful question to ask, because in the view of many people, it does not. There are failures, and when we ask ourselves why there are failures, whether it is down to bad actors, the incompetence of the system or human resource problems, the answer is that it might be down to human resource problems, challenges within bureaucracy or whatever but …

I am in no way playing the person rather than the ball. Senator Seery Kearney knows that I am sincere in my convictions around this issue. I speak for many people when I say that a child is entitled to be brought into the world by a father and a mother and where possible, by his or her own father and mother. It is not me, it is the Government, supported by Senator Seery Kearney, that is advancing big social change with this legislation. It is taking the novel step. It cannot whinge if people such as myself and Sena…

That is a separate question.

I was positing the situation that a convicted rapist might have a consensual relationship that might lead to a child and the mere fact that we do not yet sterilise convicted rapists. It is simply to make what really should be a much more obvious point, that the State has a right to apply certain tests and expect certain standards if its supportive apparatus is being called in aid of situations into which it can otherwise have no control or input. Senator Ruane completely misunderstood the point I was making. Hopefu…

Is that in the Bill?

The Minister spoke about how it would be great if we could all reflect. That is why we should not be rushing Committee and Report Stages together so that we could actually reflect on what each other is saying. However, I must say the Minister’s logic does not stand up as to his reason for not accepting that earlier amendment about the sex abuser. In absolutely no way did the amendment’s wording exclude the possibility of the regulator having regard to other welfare conditions. There are any number of ways in which …

This may help what the Minister sees as a straw man to become clearer. There is a time to be specific about requirements and not just to hope for the best. If right now people on the street were asked if a person assaults another person and leaves them unconscious on the street, should it be mandatory that some custodial sentence would be served, everybody would say that is a no-brainer. However, as we know, with the best will in the world, people to whom we entrust certain aspects of the State's business do not re…

I move amendment No. 16: In page 61, line 30, to delete “21 years” and substitute “25 years”.

All of these sections are important and I have a couple of questions for the Minister. This is the section that sets out, in the context of domestic surrogacy, who may be intending parents. The section provides that a surrogacy agreement may be entered into by two intending parents, jointly, or by a single intending parent and that any intending parent shall have attained the age of 21 years before the section 53 application is made. We have already touched on this. It is impossible not to. These issues are all fit…

This does allow it through celibacy, now that you mention it. We have this bizarre situation where high-profile people have been able and enabled to have children through surrogacy. We have had the stories about wanting to bring them in from Ukraine in the context of the war and so on. All of that is stuff we can readily sympathise with, within the facts as they are. The problem is there are unseen and future victims of all these arrangements. The media, not having done its job in this area, not having challenged t…

Does the Senator make-----

I still am.

I thank the Minister for that important clarification.