We are not in the Stella Cinema in Rathmines where people get to react to what they see on the screen. We are talking about human rights abuses.

Yes, and we have to be sensitive to the poor women of this world who are being completely forgotten by this legislation, who are exploited for their bodies, and the trafficking that is going on, the trading in children, the commodification of children, the denial upfront, in advance and forever of a child's right to be loved and nurtured by their birth mother, who has cared for them for nine months in the womb, and the denial of the right of a child to be loved and to have their genetic parents responsible for them…

Any advance? This is criminal, except it is being made lawful.

It is precisely on this point. I ask the Minister to give me something better than his glib response that he sees no reason to confine this to EU citizens. It is the least he can do if he wants to pretend, however weakly, that he is not smiling on and counting on the exploitation of poor women by those who are in a financially advantageous position over them. That is the reason for this amendment. It is an evidence-based proposal. Those who are concerned by surrogacy, not to say those who have been hurt by it, are …

I apologise to the people in the Gallery for their being so badly served by such a weak and verbally inadequate Minister, who has no principles and whose only mission in life is to give the loudest and most influential lobbyists whatever they want to please the media but who is in no way animated by principles of justice or a reflective approach to inclusivity when it comes to legislation and protecting the weak. He has no interest in these whatsoever. He is probably the worst Minister we have ever had. He is no fr…

I would be delighted to; however, Senator Seery Kearney was allowed to expatiate at length, not just once but twice, as I pointed out before the Chair came in. I am not going to stand for being the one who is constantly interrupted and asked to stick to the amendment. I am very clearly replying to what the Minister said, and I will do so. Okay? The first and obvious error the Minister made was to suggest I had mocked the people in the Gallery. Far from it - I had expressed disquiet at their behaviour. It is not the…

I would also like to say “Up the Rossies”, considering that I live only about five miles from the Roscommon border. I am as frequently in Roscommon as I am in County Galway. Fáilte romhaibh agus go n-éirí go geal libh. They are listening to the robust expression of our democracy, or what is our noisy democracy at times, but it is better to have a noisy democracy than a democracy in which people are silenced because of groupthink. That is why we sometimes have to disagree, hopefully never too disagreeably, in this C…

I will give way to the Senator if she wishes to tell me who said it.

Does Senator Seery Kearney wish to be more specific? I do not know whether I have a friend who would say such a thing.

I am willing to give way to Senator Seery Kearney if she wishes to name and shame. I will criticise such a point of view on the floor of this House. Does Senator Seery Kearney wish to name those people?

Okay. Let me say clearly, when I saw the operation of the surrogacy committee, and the way in which Senator Keogan, in particular, was treated, I was tempted to wonder whether the normal, mature, careful, respectful, deliberate process we expect in Parliament and in its committees was being undermined by the fact that personal feelings were so strong around the issue. At one point, I was tempted to think it would have been more appropriate if Senator Seery Kearney had been a witness rather than a member. However, I…

Any of us who have anything which looks like a vested interest should always declare it and she cannot be faulted on that score. Senator Seery Kearney is crystal clear about where she comes from. I have nothing but compliments for the Senator on this occasion. However, when one has such strong personal feelings on a matter, it behoves us all, as it behoves me when I talk about issues that upset me, tend to worry me or cause me a strong reaction, to call oneself aside and ask if one is being fair to the opponent who…

There are a lot of people who do not have Senator Seery Kearney's advocacy skills and who are not elected representatives or powerful people. Those people wish to express their concern and some of them have been personally hurt by all of this. If there are people on the Internet who say ugly things then shame on them. If there are people on the Internet who say Senator Seery Kearney should not have a voice, then shame on them. However, I say shame on anyone who says that people who come forward and speak about this…

I will speak through the Chair but I will not speak just to the amendment; I will speak to the charges which have been made. I hope we understand each other. I wish to reiterate that I oppose the stigmatising of anyone. An argument which has been used against people who oppose surrogacy is that they are somehow out to stigmatise the families and children involved. No, they are not. I certainly criticise and stigmatise the process. People should not have access to this process. It is violative of women's rights and …

Do you want me to give way, Minister?

You are poor enough at speaking up when it comes to giving an answer. You are just irritated.

In his heart, the Minister is not a liberal at all. He is a totalitarian. He does not "like it up 'im", to quote "Dad's Army".

The Minister does not like being told uncomfortable truths.

He feels the need to interrupt, whereas all I have done-----

Nobody is being stigmatised here but there is a process that ought to be strongly criticised. Those are my remarks in response to the unjust charges of the Minister and Senator Seery Kearney.