Will the Department of Defence revisit the terms of reference of the tribunal investigating abuse in the Defence Forces, given the dismay of Women of Honour at the limits of what is proposed, and will the Tánaiste make a statement on the matter?

I propose to take Questions Nos. 64, 74, 76, 78, 85 and 93 together.

I believe we addressed this matter in an earlier question.

The draft terms of reference were prepared. There was a significant number of meetings between Women of Honour, me and the Attorney General. In the earlier question, I listed the amendments that we had taken on board as a result of those meetings with Women of Honour. I would make the point that we agreed on a range of issues. If the Deputy wishes, I will list them again.

That the statutory inquiry would be by way of public inquiry was Women of Honour’s first big request. We discussed the pros and cons and agreed to it. We accepted an amendment on the addition of physical torture, physical assault and psychological harm and the definition of “abuse”, and these are now in the terms of reference. Another amendment involved the inclusion of the Protected Disclosures Acts, 2014 and 2022, and the definition of “complaints processes”. The investigation of whether complaints were actively deterred was sought, and I believe that was fair. Whether there was a culture that discouraged the making of complaints is in the terms of reference. The provision of safeguards for serving members who give evidence to the tribunal is included, as is the provision of a waiver in respect of non-disclosure agreements. The tribunal may permit evidence of abuse and the consequences of abuse to be heard and there is provision for an investigation of the response to the use of hazardous chemicals within the Air Corps headquarters.

Also, the draft terms of reference were expanded following consultation with stakeholders, especially with the Women of Honour group, to include investigations of whether complaints of abuse were actively deterred or if there was a culture that discouraged the making of complaints. This will allow the tribunal, and this concerns the Deputy's earlier point about incidents, to investigate allegations where an individual claims they did not pursue their complaint through the process due to, for example, their fears of repercussions.

There was a fear that if a complaint had not been made that this would mean someone could not go before the tribunal. This has been dealt with and it is in the terms of reference. The chair, the judge, is absolutely clear that all cases that come before the tribunal will be heard. Obviously, though, the tribunal cannot make findings in relation to criminal matters that are before the courts.

We are all anxious that the tribunal does its work and it goes well for the Women of Honour and, indeed, the people we met this morning in the audiovisual room. There are, though, three things we must keep to the front of our minds here because if we do not, then we will be lost before we start. One is that there is a great power imbalance between the Defence Forces as an organisation and the individual personnel within it. It is also a hierarchical and patriarchal culture, in which the outlined sexual and other abuses were committed. The third point is the powerlessness of the people who were abused in a society within a society. It has its own rules, its own discipline, its own courts and its own police. Of course, regarding the people being dealt with, it is not just a question of a different rank. The people being dealt with are armed. They have their own courts. These are things we must keep to the front of mind in respect of the terms of reference and the business of the tribunal.

I thank the Deputy.

How does it go when questions are grouped?

It is Deputy Wynne who is next and then-----

Okay.

We are running out of time. I call Deputy Wynne.

Right. I was just not sure about the procedure when the questions are grouped like this.

Go raibh maith agat. As the Minister is aware, there was a briefing in the audiovisual room today and the information we heard was quite harrowing, not only from the Women of Honour but from the other groups as well. They mentioned respect, loyalty, selflessness, physical courage, moral courage and integrity. Those are the six values that the Defence Forces state are fundamental. They are the ethos of the Defence Forces. These values are the very reason many chose a career in the Defence Forces. Unfortunately, they were let down and failed and they are coping with that fact daily.

To choose the military is not an easy option. It is not for everyone and it is a choice that comes from a place of great pride in your country and a call to defend your people. The Minister needs to bear in mind that these are formidable individuals. They will not be deterred nor will they give up. They have been loud and unequivocally clear that the terms of reference do exclude victims of abuse. We know full well that the complaints process has been deficient, and we have known this from as far back as 1990. Perhaps the Minister can provide a bit of clarification because it is my understanding that those who did not engage with the complaints process will not be included in the inquiry.

No, they will be.

We are out of time. I will just let this item conclude. I will allow the Tánaiste in for a very brief comment.

People who did not make a complaint during their lives in the military for fear of suffering reprisal-----

Yes.

-----or were deterred by intimation will be allowed to go before the tribunal and make their case because it is important that they will be able to go before the tribunal so that-----

Does that depend on the judge's opinion?

No, it does not depend on that. This is in the terms of reference.

This was not what was explained to us.

I know, please-----

It is in the terms of reference.

Right.

This was made clear to the members of the Women of Honour group as well. It is in the terms of reference.

That was not their interpretation of it.

Yes, there has been a breakdown in communication because-----

I have listed out three times today now that we specifically included and facilitated any people who felt they could not make a complaint because they were deterred from doing so or were afraid there would be reprisals. All those cases are not excluded. I do not know how that has emerged. The Attorney General met with the Women of Honour group with me and went through all of this. The only issue at the end that I could think of, because I listed out all the issues, and the Deputy probably heard me there listing the cases, was around the random selection issue in a context where we had, say, thousands of cases. This matter goes back 40 years, so there is a safeguard in there to ensure we can finish the process within a reasonable timeframe.

Go raibh maith agat.

Will that be-----

The judge, however, has made it clear that, and this relates to workplace incidents and everything, in terms of-----

I thank the Tánaiste. I have stretched the time as far as I can.

The idea of random selection had come from the legal representative of the Women of Honour group in the first instance.

I thank the Tánaiste.

Anybody who made a complaint and was unhappy with how that complaint was treated or anybody who did not make a complaint but who was abused can come before the tribunal.

We are out of time. We are four minutes over.

Maybe we will get the terms of reference.

Earlier, it was said there was a lack of communication or, certainly, that the communication was poor between the Minister's Department and the stakeholders.

I have given as much flexibility as I can. I am really sorry.

I know. We will be discussing it anyway, so I suppose we will get a bit more clarity in that context.

Yes, this matter is on tomorrow.

Go raibh maith agat. That concludes questions to the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence.