I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

We are here today on an historic occasion. This is the first Bill in Dáil Éireann to specifically outlaw fox hunting. There have been attempts to ban a range of blood sports before. The origins of fox hunting are around the 1400s, when foxes were on farmland and people rounded up a dog to get rid of them. This became a formal sport in the nineteenth century by the British, our colonial rulers, dressed in master attire and all of the trappings of hierarchy. Oscar Wilde's famous phrase, "[T]he unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable", still applies. However, the personnel have changed socially. It is ironic that in 1919 Sinn Féin, for example, the forerunner of the three big parties in the Dáil today, ran a campaign of disruption of fox hunts in protest at the release of prisoners for independence precisely because fox hunting was carried out by the landed gentry. The participants may be different, but it is ironic that the three big parties in the Dáil that profess to be nationalist maintain this when it has been banned in the UK for over 20 years.

There is overwhelming opposition to fox hunting in this country. Let us be very clear on that from the outset. It is not popular in any way whatsoever in all regions and among all ages. We have heard some Ministers banging a rural-urban drum all week. However, a recent poll found 73% of people are opposed to fox hunting and only 12% expressed any support for it. We will keep hearing that this is a rural versus urban issue, but the statistics say otherwise. In Connacht-Ulster, 72% of people in the poll to which I referred were opposed to fox hunting and in Dublin the figure was 76%. It is virtually the same feeling. The importance of the fox in Irish folklore and history needs to be stated because it has been demonised. It is a native species, important to our biodiversity and plays an important role as a pollinator to spread seeds in our ecosystem.

I want to start with what happens on the fox hunt because we will hear a lot of things. This is about cruelty to animals. The Irish Council Against Bloodsports provides a very good description:

The dogs are sent into an area to scent out a fox and force it to break cover ... the chase begins and can continue for an hour or more. This part of the hunt provides the “field” [the riders] with the excitement they crave as they hurdle fences, ditches and walls in pursuit of the fox. The fox will go anywhere to escape the hounds. He will try to go to earth down a fox-hole, drain or badger sett, but these escapes are likely to have been blocked the night before by hunt supporters. The fox will run among sheep and other livestock, the hounds following in pursuit, resulting in the livestock being scattered and put under stress. If he cannot escape, the fox is chased to exhaustion at which point he will be caught and savaged to death by the hounds. Foxhounds are bred for stamina, not speed, otherwise the fox would be caught too soon and spoil the hunters’ fun. Often a fox will succeed in finding an unblocked refuge. The hunt has several options; they can leave the fox if they are confident of finding others, they can dig him out with shovels, or they can send for the terrierman

Either way, it is a horrific ending for the fox.

I took part in a debate yesterday and the person I debated said a fox is wily and cute, as if it enjoyed this. What I will say comes from people who study animal behaviour, not a TD speaking off the top of her head. For the fox, there is heightened fear, exhaustion and loss of motor control. The Burns inquiry, carried out before fox hunting was banned in England and Wales, found that a fox had severe mental trauma. The other animals involved in this barbaric process, such as horses, also suffer. They are forced to run and jump. This is a prey animal whose first and primary instinct is flight. Hounds are also hidden victims. They can be injured and, as we know, are often dumped and shot by their owners when they are no longer of use.

Why is this barbarism maintained? The argument from one party, namely Sinn Féin, was that it would go underground and we need to regulate it. It is practically underground anyway because there is evidence of criminal adjacent behaviour. As those who attended the briefing we had last week will know, foxes are often put in a sack when caught and brought to dogfights according to wildlife rescuers who have found foxes consistent with those sorts of injuries. In a survey carried out by thejournal.ie , it was found that foxes sell for about €100 and there are about 4,500 members of illegal hunt clubs. There is money in this. As with everything, that is what is keeping it going. There is tourism in fox hunting because it has been banned in the UK. There is money in hunts for those who organise them. Again, I do not have time to go into all of that.

I want to deal very quickly with some of the issues relating to foxes and farming. As I said, they keep down the number of rodents, which is important for arable farming. Rabbits can cost arable farmers a lot of money. The fox is portrayed as a threat to sheep and livestock. The biggest threats to lambs are weather, starvation and disease. They are the leading causes of lamb mortality. Only 1% of lambs are estimated to be lost to foxes. In areas of hill farming the figure may be slightly higher. Let us have grants to help hill farmers deal with that. Good husbandry and fencing are the way around this. We keep hearing that we need to keep down fox numbers. If a cull is needed, it is up to the Department of agriculture to organise that; it will not be a wild west situation of leaving it to individual fox hunts.

We keep hearing about the equine industry. A UCD report found that less than 5% of our equine sector is reliant on hunting. There is huge potential to expand the equine sector. Loads of working class kids and ordinary people cannot access horses because it is still an elitist sector, such as trekking and so on.

Last week, there was a bill in the Dáil on dog welfare. I know the names of all TDs with dogs at this point because we heard from Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael about how they love their dogs. A fox is a dog - madra rua. It is a wild dog. Why is a wild dog of less importance? If Deputies vote against my Bill, why are they okay with wild dogs being hounded like this? Domestic dogs kill sheep and bite children. Some of them kill humans, yet we do not advocate that they be hunted down. The Irish Wildlife Trust and the National Society For the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, NSPCA, have answered a lot of these arguments and fully back the Bill.

I want to mention some of the myths that rural people love fox hunting. Nothing could be further from the truth. Again, due to time I will not read out all of the correspondence I have received. Many people have contacted my office regarding this issue. They described how people arrogantly come onto their property, trespass on their lands and terrorise them. Agnes, who lives in Kildare and contacted my office, also spoke to the Irish Independent . Her sister is profoundly disabled and hounds invaded their garden. The two women were traumatised listening to hounds savage a fox. They tried to drown out the shrill cries from the fox by playing very loud music in the house. The woman could not eat for about a week afterwards. Does the Minister think that is okay? Deputies will stand up and tell us that this is a pursuit and part of tradition for rural people. Rural people do not love fox hunting. It is a minority participation, 2% according to the most recent poll.

Some people are suddenly concerned about wildlife, such as ground birds.

Of course, a fox will go after a pheasant or a ground bird; that is a natural instinct. The reason ground birds are under threat is development, habitat destruction and all of the issues of modernisation and urbanisation.

I will also mention a fact that is not stated, which is the research showing the link between cruelty to animals and cruelty to humans. If the Government allows this type of barbarism, people become inured to inflicting harm on others. For example, in school shootings in the US, some 43% of the shooters had abused animals. There are many more examples. In 2017, 89% of women who had companion animals and were in an abusive relationship reported that the abuser had abused the animals as well. It is a well known fact that if someone abuses animals he or she is inured to abusing humans.

I do not have time to talk about the Whip system now but I will when summing up. It is absolutely outrageous that this is being used to prevent the popular will.

It does not; it bans trail hunting.

It bans trail hunting. Okay, I will step back from that point because I think it is important there is at least one drag hunt in Ireland. It is not my thing but as long as a fox is not being killed I am not particularly concerned about that.

It is important we keep the focus here on the central issue which is using legislation to ban the killing of foxes - the killing of animals for pleasure. We have had the opportunity on three occasions in this House over the past five weeks to discuss issues of animal welfare. They were issues to do with greyhounds and dog breeding and today it is fox hunting. Deputy Coppinger has already pointed out that during the debate on the puppy farming Bill last week, there was real passion among Deputies. Deputies spoke with real meaning about what their dogs and their pets meant to them. Today, we have another opportunity to make real change. We have another opportunity to outlaw a practice that is long past the time of needing to be outlawed in this country. Ireland's laws have banned cruel practices of killing animals in the past in a range of areas and it is time we took this opportunity today. I urge Deputies to support this legislation.

I welcome and support this Bill. I thank Deputy Coppinger for bringing it forward. The supporters of fox hunting like to present this issue as a rural versus urban one. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. This issue actually unites urban and rural communities. Every poll and survey shows a significant majority of the public, both urban and rural, are opposed to fox hunting and want a ban to be introduced.

I live in the countryside in a small townland called Scrothea West in the foothills of the Comeragh mountains, just on the edge of Clonmel. I was born there in a house that had no running water and no flush toilet. We had: five acres; two cows for milking; a couple of calves; two pigs; a flock of hens for eggs; a flock of turkeys for the Christmas market; a small orchard with apples, gooseberry bushes and blackcurrant bushes for apple tarts and jam; and a kitchen garden for potatoes and vegetables. It could not be much more rural than that. I trekked across the Comeragh and Knockmealdown mountains since childhood, spending many a summer's day with the local postman, the late George Conway. During that time, I learned to love and respect animals in their natural environments.

My late uncle was a small farmer. One of my siblings is a small farmer. I do not claim to be an expert on rural affairs but I do know a little bit about them. Farmers I talk to hate to see the hunt arrive because these people - wealthy elites on horseback - think they have a God given right to trespass on farmer's lands, to leave gates open, to break fences, to damage crops and to scatter livestock. By the way, there is not a single item in this Bill that prevents a farmer from protecting his or her livestock. Fox hunting is a barbaric activity and animal cruelty by wealthy, well heeled elites on horseback is a bridge too far. This Bill is a reasonable, common sense and humane one and I believe it should be supported.

Last Friday we all received a glossy brochure in our pigeon holes. They were a clear indication of the wealth and power that is behind the fox hunting lobby. By the way, the water diviner with the hazel stick on the front of this brochure is surely a colleague of the man who divined my water supply over 50 years ago. The other thing that jumps out of this glossy brochure is that, apparently, Tony Blair regrets bringing in a ban on fox hunting. I will tell the Minister that I will take no lectures from Tony Blair - a British imperialist war monger who is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians, men women and children. I have not heard him regret that. I have not heard him regret the British genocide in Ireland in the 1840s and 1850s, called an Gorta Mór - the Famine. I have not heard him regret the burning to the ground of Cork city 100 years ago by the Black and Tans.

I have not heard him regret the deaths of ten hunger strikers in the Six Counties in 1981.

The public, as usual, are way ahead of the politicians on this issue. They support a ban on fox hunting and I call on all the political parties to allow a free vote for their Members this evening. It is outrageous that the Whip should be applied on this issue. I again call on all parties to allow a free vote on this issue tonight and pass this humane and reasonable piece of legislation.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this proposal from Deputy Coppinger. I wish to state clearly at the outset that I and my Department take the matter of animal welfare most seriously. My Department devotes considerable resources to protect the well-being of animals and deal with breaches of animal welfare legislation when they occur. The Government is fully committed to promoting good practices that respect the welfare of all animals. On behalf of the Government, I am putting forward our stance to oppose the Animal Health and Welfare (Ban on Fox Hunting) Bill 2025, the reasons for which I will outline in my address this morning. The Government fully recognises the emotive nature of this policy area, which has been the subject of debate over many years. The Bill, as set out by Deputy Coppinger, proposes to amend section 12 of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 which currently provides an exemption for the lawful hunting of an animal. Deputies will be aware that section of 12 of the Animal Health and Welfare Act was fully discussed and approved by the Oireachtas previously.

It is important to note that hunting in Ireland today is not unregulated. Rather, it operates under clear codes of conduct, licensing, welfare standards and full insurance requirements. In accordance with section 25 of the Animal Health and Welfare Act, codes of conduct have been adopted by the members of the Hunting Association of Ireland that detail the conduct to be adhered to in respect of the hunting of foxes and treatment of animals during the hunt. The codes also take into account local concerns and the concerns of landowners on whose land hunting takes place.

Foxes are not a protected species under the wildlife Acts in Ireland and it is legal to hunt foxes under the legislation. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Browne, has no plans to change the legislation with regard to foxes at this time. Where a specific case of animal neglect or cruelty is identified, offences may be prosecuted under the Act. There are strict penalties that apply for offences under section 12 of this Act. On summary conviction, offences are liable to a class A fine to a maximum of €5,000, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or both. On conviction of indictment, offences are liable to a fine not exceeding €250,000, imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years, or both.

In addition to these existing legislative protections, it is important to frame the context of today's debate beyond that of a binary choice between being with us or against us. To do so is deeply cynical and exploitative and it allows the serious issue of animal welfare to be used as a Trojan horse for a more divisive agenda. I have heard Deputies in this House who support a ban say they have never met anyone who has been on a hunt or, indeed, seen a hunt themselves. I find it incredible that this is used as a selling point to advocate for a ban. There has been no attempt to engage with the very community and cohort of people who would be most affected by such a move or effort to understand the opposite point of view. Decisions could be made today that fundamentally change people's lives and that of their communities and those making that decision remain entirely oblivious of the consequences by virtue of the fact that the activity is invisible to them.

I recognise that this is a deeply emotive issue, one which people on both sides of the argument feel passionately about. Fox hunting represents a long-held tradition and is a part of a way of life for those involved. While it is not an activity the vast majority of people engage in, it means an awful lot to the people who do. People employed by hunting associations or who work in the kennels and care for the dogs and horses have woken up this morning not knowing whether there is a future for their job or animals when they go to bed tonight. It is entirely disproportionate to try to make criminals of these people overnight for engaging in an activity that, in many cases, stretches back generations.

Beyond those directly affected, we must also be conscious of the wider negative impacts this could have for the farriers and vets who benefit from their business, the feed suppliers who rely on their custom, the farmers who avail of the fallen animal collection service they provide, which is most important, the local hospitality in places where commerce can be quiet, especially during the winter season and, indeed, the wider Irish equine sector too as we close down pathways for young riders passionate about horses, undermine the same associations that run our point-to-point races so successfully and lose important jobs and economic activity in rural areas where there are fewer alternatives.

I also wish to reference the legislation itself. The Bill, as it is formed and worded, proposes to ban all hunting for foxes, regardless of the purpose and manner in which that hunting is carried out. It also proposes a ban on trail hunting. Deputy Roderic O'Gorman made the point that he accepts farmers need to shoot foxes on occasion as a control mechanism but, under this Bill, that activity would be illegal into the future. Deputy Healy touched on that as well. I gather from what he said that his understanding is that this normal activity could still happen.

That is nonsense.

Under this Bill, however, that activity would not be permissible at all. As such, this Bill would ban the hunting of foxes with hounds, trail hunting with hounds and the shooting of foxes for pest control, which is carried out to protect livestock and forms an important source of foxes for disease surveillance purposes.

It does not mention shooting.

Ireland is officially free of the zoonotic tapeworm echinococcus multilocularis. This is a severe tapeworm that causes debilitating diseases in humans. Annual surveillance in shot foxes provides evidence to prove the absence of the disease in Ireland, which allows us to require that all dogs entering the country are given preventative treatment prior to their arrival here, thus protecting public health as well as domestic pets and wildlife. This work would not be possible under the legislation as it is proposed before the House today.

In respect of the pest control point, while attempts have been made to downplay this, the reality is that foxes prey on livestock and other wildlife such as rare ground-nesting birds, which is something Deputy Coppinger admitted to in her opening address. I have not seen many accounts online seeking to play on people's emotions posting photos of dead lambs or hens that have been attacked by foxes. We all know that anyone who has backyard hens generally always has a story about the night the fox came. Research shows that red foxes are widespread across Ireland and can be found in every county. The nature of Ireland's wildly-farmed, fragmented landscape and the absence of an apex predator means it lends itself to high fox densities. Indeed, Deputy Coppinger listed many of the animals of which the fox is a predator in her opening address and acknowledged that the fox does not have a natural predator. Hunting provides one of the necessary means of controlling the fox population in Ireland. Deputy Coppinger and People Before Profit are pursuing this as a wedge issue, specifically designed to be emotive and confrontational. If they were honest, this is only a starting point for them. I have no doubt there are many other rural activities they would also like to ban.

What is the Minister talking about?

If they get their way today, it will not stop there. Before long, People Before Profit would have us back here debating legislation no doubt to ban fishing-----

Would the Minister stop?

-----because of the impact it would have on the worm and mayfly.

The profile of animal welfare has never been higher and the prominence it receives in national, regional and social media reflects the seriousness with which this issue is treated by stakeholders, welfare groups, the public and this Government. On 19 November, I launched the six-week public consultation that will run to early January 2026 inviting views to inform the development of a new animal welfare strategy for the period 2026-2030. I encourage all interested stakeholders to provide feedback and comments and make recommendations around the direction, themes and thrust of the new animal health and welfare strategy. To legislate in isolation rather than on the basis of consultation and evidence risks unintended consequences and laws that do not work in practice.

I will touch on one last point, which has been raised in earlier contributions and will no doubt continue to be raised, that is, a potential urban-rural divide. I absolutely agree with the previous contributors who said this is not and should not be about an urban-rural divide. I do not believe it is, either. This Bill can be much better divided along the lines of those who believe we can achieve so much more when we work to understand each other's perspectives and those who believe having the loudest voice in the room gives them the right to dictate how everyone else should live their lives. That is an important point that I hope is reflected in this debate today. I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for the opportunity to speak on this Bill.

The Minister is defending the indefensible and he knows it.

He is defending cruel, barbaric practices. He is defending the organised killing for human entertainment of a tiny minority of foxes. Then, he tries to do it in such a way as to suggest that it should not be divided along urban and rural lines, having two minutes previously said that this is a "wedge issue" that is "designed to be emotive and confrontational", and that there are many other rural activities we would like to ban. On the one hand, the Minister said we should not be pitching it as urban and rural, and we agree, but on the other hand, he was doing precisely that.

The Minister said we are presenting this as a binary issue. He was not clear on what non-binary way he wants to present it. Some of us are opposed to fox hunting. We are opposed to this cruel, barbaric practice. We think it must go the way of dog fighting. I do not know if the Minister had a problem with the banning of dog fighting. We are opposed to badger baiting. It should be banned immediately. Others do not agree with that. The Minister thinks that this should continue. That is a binary issue. I am sorry if that offends the Minister in some way.

The Minister did not say "rural pursuits" and instead went for "rural activities" because, of course, it brings us back to the presidential election. Fox hunting played an unexpectedly outsized role in the campaign as an illustration of how incredibly out of touch Heather Humphreys was, with her continued invocation of rural pursuits and her enthusiastic support for fox hunting, not shared by the vast majority of the public. In the end, the anti-fox hunting candidate won and the pro-fox hunting candidate lost, and it was a strong illustration for people that this person was wildly out of touch. Therefore, it is deeply ironic that we are going to have a vote tonight in the Dáil, where it seems the three big parties are going to continue to be out of touch, not take the lesson of that presidential election and vote to allow this cruel practice to continue.

Regarding the other arguments the Minister made, the only way he can defend the indefensible is with misinformation and a divisive approach. There was the suggestion that this is about pest control. First, to be clear, it is misinformation to say that our Bill bans the shooting of foxes. Of course, it does not.

It refers to all hunting - all.

It explicitly does not. It is hunting - fox hunting. If the Minister has a problem with the-----

The word “all” is there.

It is about fox hunting. That is what the Bill is about. People can go and read it online.

It is not misinformation.

If the Minister had a problem, he could come back and sum up by saying, “We agree with a ban on fox hunting, but we have a problem with some of the wording and the way it is done”. That is no problem. What would happen is it would be passed on Second Stage and amended on Committee Stage.

The point on the ban on trail hunting is there precisely because this has been used in Britain as a way of continuing undercover or underground fox hunting. However, no ban is specified and we support the possibility of the continuation of drag hunting.

Let us be real about the argument on pest control. Saoirse McHugh makes a very good point in the newspaper today: “I don't think anybody believes that getting a pack of 50 dogs and 50 people on horseback to chase a single fox to exhaustion is a reasonable or efficient form of pest control.” Foxes are no threat to anyone or anyone's livelihood. They are beautiful, intelligent animals that play a vital role in our ecosystem. Tearing them limb from limb is not a sport. It is not an ancient Irish tradition. It is not a rural pursuit. It is an alien bloodlust, imported into this country by a colonial aristocracy. The Irish Masters of Foxhounds Association was established in 1845 during the Famine, as Deputy Healy noted. While ordinary people were starving to death, there were aristocrats in red coats riding around on horseback, torturing animals to death. That is what this tradition is about.

I have to put it to those in Sinn Féin. What are they thinking? What are they thinking about supporting this colonial practice? If they do not come to their senses, if they do not change their party's position on this, I hope at the very least that they will allow a free vote. Surely they know that this is going to be done away with. In 20 years’ time, we are not going to have the continuation of fox hunting in this country. Surely a majority of the Sinn Féin membership supports a ban on fox hunting. I know that those I worked with in the presidential campaign were laughing at Heather Humphreys, her support of rural pursuits and her defence of fox hunting, and they were supporting Catherine Connolly’s opposition to it. Surely some of them will break with the party Whip and vote with the people, who, urban or rural, are overwhelmingly opposed to fox hunting.

I must make the point that we should not be referring to people who are not in the House and cannot defend themselves. I have been asked to pass that on.

It is hard to talk in the Dáil without referring to people who are not here.

I am only passing on the rules of the House. We should not be referring to people outside. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

I thank Deputy Coppinger for bringing the Bill forward. I am very happy to support it.

I love sport. I am passionate about sport but I find it had to hard to understand how anybody could gain entertainment from a large group of people on horseback, with a pack of dogs, pursuing a frightened animal, and then watching and celebrating as that frightened animal is torn to pieces by dogs. That is not a sport. That is just an exercise in cruelty and barbarism.

As has been said, this is not an ancient Irish rural tradition. It is a colonial pursuit that was developed by the British nobility. As for the point about the contrast between the enforced starvation of the Irish people during the Famine and the expansion of so-called rural pursuits by the British nobility, there is a connection. Of course, the genocide of the Irish people during what is known as the Famine was linked to an ambition by our colonial masters to drive the people off the land and clear the land. It was an exaggerated version of the enclosure movement, where the rich wanted to drive ordinary people off the land and clear it for their so-called pursuits.

It is ironic, in a way, that those who defend this practice, although it is interesting that the Minister does not actually defend the practice-----

Yes.

He did not defend it at all.

I did.

He did not. What he did was try to misrepresent the Bill. That is what he did.

I defended it.

He said there were things in the Bill that are not in the Bill, and then he implied that, really, this was part of a wider agenda of opposing rural pursuits, which it absolutely is not. However, the Minister did not actually defend it. He did not defend it because he knows it is indefensible. It is utterly indefensible. Please tell me how it is a legitimate form of the sport to tear a frightened animal limb from limb with a pack of dogs and a big gang of people on horseback. It is nothing of the sort.

As for the idea that it has anything to do with pest control, seriously, it has to be the most inefficient form of pest control possibly imaginable - you get a gang of horses, dogs and all the associated things to chase one fox. The Minister is seriously putting that forward as a form of pest control. It has nothing to do with that. It was a sport of the nobility - a sadistic sport of the nobility. It is barbaric and uncivilised. How the Minister could possibly defend it is beyond me.

The irony, as has already been said, is that our colonial masters, the British, who developed this, have actually banned it themselves. For some bizarre reason, however, a small group of unrepresentative people, who do not represent the majority opinion in this country, have decided to try to defend this colonial elite practice. It is bizarre. I think the Minister should step back from this and reflect the views of the majority of the people in this country to end this barbaric practice.

I thank the proposers of the Bill for bringing it before the House. It is important to debate all these issues, even the issues that separate and divide us. Every year at the Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis we have an opportunity to discuss various motions and set out our party policy. That is where our position on this comes from. For many years we have had motions before Ard-Fheiseanna where it has been discussed. What normally happens is that various cumainn around the country discuss the motions in advance and have their debates. We then debate it at the Ard-Fheis and have a vote on it, and that sets our position. That is why we have the position we have in respect of this.

When it comes to debate, of course there are different views from different people but at the same time we recognise that across the length and breadth of Ireland there are thousands of gun clubs in practically every parish in the country. The people involved in those are hunting and also involved in conservation and everything to do with the countryside, a tradition which sometimes goes back for many generations. Fox hunting on horseback is a tiny part of that. For most of them, the elite and landed gentry are a thing of the past. The people who are involved in that now are not of that vein. Certainly, that is my experience in my part of the country.

Of course, we also recognise that there has to be strict regulation. Cruelty should not happen and should be stamped out at every opportunity. In my experience those involved in these activities do not go out with cruel intent. They go out mainly because of the satisfaction they get from being involved in the hunt. Often no horses are involved and they are on foot during the hunt. In many cases people engage in this because it is something they have done for generations in some cases. We accept that people have a genuine fear that if we start at one place and ban fox hunting, it will lead to something else and something else. That fear has been expressed by many people, particularly those involved in gun clubs around the country. Whether it is real or not, it is a fear they have and we have to recognise and acknowledge that as well.

Many of us see the fox as a predator which is dangerous certainly for sheep and ground-nesting birds. Many of the people involved in the gun clubs are also involved in other conservation work. They often raise pheasants and let them out along with hen harriers and other ground-nesting birds as well. Of course, the fox is one of the serious predators in respect of that. Many of our farmers are asked not to mow their meadows to allow ground-nesting birds, particularly rare birds, to be able to evolve and develop, and to get them back into the countryside again where they are very much an endangered species. The fox is one of the key predators in respect of that, as are the pine marten and the mink, one of which is a protected species and another an invasive one. Work has to be done to get rid of them. It is the same thing with the fox.

Many foxes are killed not at hunts but actually through lamping where a light is shone on foxes when they are out in the field. They stand and look back and have no sporting chance. It is a way in which there has to be control of an animal which may be beautiful to see but has a very dangerous element to it particularly when it comes to ground-nesting birds but also farm animals such as poultry and sheep out on the mountains.

Of course, we have a decision to make on this and Sinn Féin has a position. That position comes from our Ard-Fheis where this is debated, discussed and set out. If that position changes in the future, it will change in the future. I do not see that happening because I see a groundswell of support from the vast majority of people around the country who recognise that this is something that has been there for a very long time. It is presented sometimes as being elitist, but that has not been the experience of most people. The majority of the Sinn Féin membership have voted on this and have made it very clear that they want to see this continued in a way that protects the environment, protects the animals and has at least a clear element of wildlife protection in respect of it. Hunting the fox is part of protecting other wildlife species. That is the piece that is missing for some people who do not understand fully.

I thank the proposers of the Bill. We will not be supporting it. That is our position and we have a clear logic as to why that is our position.

Every politician has days when their personal beliefs collide with their obligations as a party member and today is one of those days for me. It is no secret that I want to change my party policy on fox hunting; that is on the record. However, as a member of a political movement, I am not a solo act. Grandstanding over an issue I feel very strongly about might feel righteous for a day, but it weakens us in the struggles that change and improve the lives of our constituents. Let us be clear: fox hunting is abhorrent, cruel, savage and barbaric with no regard for animal welfare. I genuinely do not know why it is called a sport. Calling it a sport implies that both sides have a chance, but if the fox escapes the hunt and gets back to its den, the bloodthirsty redcoats send their hounds in to invade the fox's home, its den, dig it out and tear it apart. There is nothing sporting about that. Most people, urban and rural, do not think that is sport and there are lots of rural pursuits that go on. Jesus, I do not want to hear that phrase again; it is too much for me.

Some 72% of people support a ban on fox hunting which rises to 75% in working-class areas, our base. However, today I am bound by the Whip, not because I think that banning fox hunting does not matter but because I believe in something bigger than myself. I believe in collective struggle, social justice, equality and a united Ireland. Sinn Féin is a democratic grassroots party and our policy is decided at our Ard Fheis. I have tried to change that party policy several times and I will try again. Sinn Féin does not do free votes. We believe in real solidarity and we walk the hard road together.

Before addressing the Bill, I want to speak up for our native Irish foxes. Foxes are not a significant threat to vulnerable livestock and free-range poultry. Domestic dogs - our family pets that were all named during last week's debate - and the hounds used in live hunts are a much bigger threat. Foxes play a really positive role in biodiversity and the ecosystem. The Minister talked about pest control and the fox is a natural pest controller of rats, mice and rabbit populations, and an ally to arable farming.

In urban and rural areas, they are the animal kingdom's equivalent to the Tidy Towns, eating dead and decaying birds and roadkill. Urban foxes also play a good part in cleaning up waste outside junk food outlets. However, foxes no longer have a natural predator and are a threat to ground-nesting birds, such as the curlew and the partridge. Having a humane regulated cull for the purposes of conservation is very different from blood sports.

I acknowledge the intention behind the Bill and an Teachta Coppinger's animal welfare credentials, which I share. However, the Bill is sorely lacking in practical detail. It appears to ban all fox hunting without clearly defining what kind of hunting it refers to. To be fair, section 2(c) does indicate that trapping and snaring the foxes would be prohibited but is silent on key issues. The Bill does not mention the legitimate humane killing of diseased or injured foxes, for instance. The Bill does not mention poisoning, which is a far more cruel form of killing an animal, resulting in the slow and painful death of the poor fox. There is no clarity on whether farmers could shoot a fox if they come upon it actively attacking wildlife or free-range poultry. The Bill does not even mention banning hunting on horseback with hounds by the tally-ho people who come over here from England ever since fox hunting was banned in Scotland, Wales and England, not to mention our own homegrown hooray Henrys.

Also including trail hunting complicates the Bill unnecessarily. It is completely superfluous and not central to the real issue. I accept that hounds on a trail hunt can get scent of a live fox and give chase, but so too can dogs that are out for a walk with their owners or dogs out walking the land with a farmer. The central issue with fox hunting is the cruelty of the chase and the killing of the fox using a pack of hounds. That is the core concern and everything else is political theatre. I am sure we have all seen the emails about mission creep, the slippery slope and the thin end of the wedge. Some people seem to think we will be coming for their fishing rods next. I notice that the Minister, Martin Heydon, tried to add to that scaremongering; his slip is showing.

Let me reassure people that this is not a conspiracy. My focus is on cruel bloodsports. I am not after anybody and indeed I had a friend who used to shoot rabbits and eat them because he could not live on the amount of money he receives in social welfare from the Government.

I do not have a problem with that. I am not a vegan, I am not a vegetarian, and I am not a hypocrite.

Another odd thing is that people keep sending me social media posts directed at Sinn Féin, some of which target me and other Sinn Féin TDs personally. I appreciate engagement, even spirited engagement, but this odd level of focus on Sinn Féin highlights a wider issue. If it were really about getting this Bill passed, the focus would be on where the power lies, namely with the Government, with its overwhelming majority. It is the Government that decides whether legislation is passed or blocked. I do not need other parties to be my social conscience. It is a regrettable tactic for any Opposition party on the left to direct more fire at another rather than at the conservative forces that actually block change. It speaks to something else. It reflects divisive politics about personal purity before progress. The right must love it, because that is how it keeps winning.

Where is this going?

It strengthens the status quo and existing power structures. Sinn Féin will continue to confront the system itself while acting collectively as a credible alternative government, but not by attacking other parties of the left.

My duty as a Sinn Féin TD is to our local communities, who need us to act as a team to provide an alternative government to Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Yes, I disagree with my party policy on this issue. I have said it loud and clear. My party does not expect me to pretend otherwise. I did not join Sinn Féin to rid Ireland of blood sports. Yes, I would love that to be a little benefit on the side, but the principal reason I joined Sinn Féin was to play a part in uniting my country. Item one on my agenda is unity, not to split. I promise my constituents who detest fox hunting as much as I do that this is not over. I will work within my party to banish this relic of British colonialism affecting our native wildlife. To Sinn Féin members and supporters, the vast majority of whom oppose blood sports, I say that we will change things by organising. We will not win by walking away. We will act collectively because we know division is the gift that the right does not even need to ask for in a political system designed to divide us.

It is easy to have solidarity in your party name; it takes a bit more solidarity to actually have solidarity in your politics. When we succeed in changing our party policy on fox hunting, we will bring forward a carefully drafted Bill, a Bill that will protect our beautiful, intelligent native Irish fox, ár maidrín rua, ár sionnach álainn.

I will be voting against this Bill, in line with Sinn Féin policy. I have heard the calls for a free vote but I remind people that Sinn Féin is a member-led, activist-based party. Our positions are determined democratically by our members at our Ard-Fheis. I suspect that if this were a different issue, or if Sinn Féin had a different position, those calling for a free vote now would take a very different view. As has been said, this issue has come up at successive Sinn Féin Ard-Fheiseanna and has been debated at length, often robustly. On each occasion, our members have reached the same conclusion, that rural activities involving animals should be strongly regulated rather than banned outright, and that effective regulation requires serious, constructive engagement with all stakeholders, including animal welfare organisations and those involved in these activities. That is a policy that I support. I do so without any personal or vested interest. I am not a hunter or horse owner. I have never attended a fox hunt and I have no intention of doing so.

The manner in which this debate is conducted matters. The vilification of people who engage in the activities in question or who oppose this Bill is the wrong approach. It does not encourage understanding or debate. In fact, it shuts it down and ignores the reality. It is a reality that many people, particularly in rural communities, feel increasingly alienated by the tone of this discussion. From an animal welfare perspective, I believe the approach is absolutely counterproductive. From a wider political and social perspective, it is damaging.

Those of us in this House who are serious about building a progressive-left republican alternative in this country must also be serious about unity, common citizenship, mutual respect, and shared ownership and stewardship of our land. That requires building solidarity between rural and urban working people, not driving wedges between them. We have seen internationally what happens when rural working-class communities feel dismissed or talked down to. They disengage and retreat. That does not serve animal welfare, social justice or progressive politics.

The suggestion that anyone voting against this Bill is simply pandering to a wealthy, powerful colonial lobby is fanciful. I have been lobbied on this issue by people on each side of the debate. I have engaged with many animal welfare advocates who are passionate and want Sinn Féin to support this Bill. The people I engaged with were sincere, informed and respectful, and I respect that. I am happy to and will continue to engage with them.

I was contacted by many people from my constituency, which is also that of the Chair. These were ordinary, hard-working men and women – people involved in farming, game clubs and local community organisations – and they certainly were not wealthy or powerful. In fact, and this is sometimes lost in this debate, most of them are not involved in fox hunting at all. What they have expressed is a broader concern that we cannot dismiss. If we do, we do so at our peril. Their concern is that this debate is part of a wider pattern in which rural life is increasingly viewed with suspicion or hostility. They see opposition not just to hunting but also to other rural pursuits, and in this regard they refer to farming, one-off housing and the social fabric of their communities. Whether Members agree with that assessment or not, it cannot be ignored.

Sinn Féin is a party of working people, urban and rural alike. We engage with concerns from those communities respectfully and honestly. We cannot build a fairer or united Ireland without the working people of rural communities, just as we cannot do so without the working people of urban communities. We will not earn the trust of people unless we are willing to listen and recognise the legitimacy of different lived experiences. Yes, there are people who are very passionate on both sides of this debate. There are also people asking why, in the week before Christmas, at a time of severe and unrelenting pressure from the cost-of-living crisis and a housing crisis out of control, we are dealing with such a divisive issue in this way. Putting that aside, I agree we have to be open to debate on this issue. I am open to discussion and willing to listen to those who disagree with me profoundly. I ask proponents of this Bill to do the same and to listen to people who speak about rural tradition, wildlife management and the social and economic role of hunting in their communities. This is linked to national hunt racing, and also to the wider sense of alienation felt across rural communities.

It may well be the case that it is possible to secure a ban without any of the engagement I refer to, but that would not be the best approach. That trajectory would deepen division and mistrust, which we have seen all over the world. I do not believe this is in the best interest of animal welfare, social cohesion or the working people of Ireland, rural or urban.

I will speak today on behalf of the Labour Party to express our strong support for the Animal Health and Welfare (Ban on Fox Hunting) Bill 2025. I want to thank our colleagues for proposing it.

This legislation is not about point-scoring, nor is it about rural Ireland versus urban Ireland. To say it is actually diminishes the points that some who oppose this legislation are seeking to make. It is fundamentally about decency, ethics and whether we are prepared to legislate in line with what we say are stated public values and with modern animal welfare standards. It is first and foremost a moral question.

Fox hunting is an anachronistic and inherently cruel practice that belongs to a past defined by hierarchy, elitism, exclusion, imperialism and the routine acceptance of animal suffering. It has, in our view, no place whatsoever in a modern republic that claims to value compassion, evidence-based policymaking and respect for animal welfare. There is nothing republican about fox hunting. Conservatism again trumps republicanism.

In recent weeks, my office, along with others, has received hundreds of emails calling for an end to fox hunting. Many of these messages come from constituents who have witnessed hunts at first hand. Their accounts strip away the romanticised language often used to defend this indefensible activity. They describe exhausted animals pursued for hours, terrified livestock, damaged land and an organised spectacle of violence presented - or misrepresented - as tradition. This is not wildlife management; it is cruelty. I see that "rural pursuits" now seems to be a catch-all phrase to justify anything at all that happens in rural Ireland. Again, that does rural Ireland and the people I represent in rural Ireland an absolute disservice. They are not a monolithic, homogenous group.

The public mood on this issue is clear, as was said earlier. A recent national opinion poll conducted by Ireland Thinks found that 72% of the Irish public support a ban on fox hunting. Importantly, this opposition is strong in rural Ireland itself. This is not, as I said, a rural-urban divide. I am proud to represent parts of rural County Louth and have done so for over two decades now.

Yet that consensus is not reflected in the political debate. We continue to hear claims, often repeated without any evidence whatsoever, that fox hunting is vital for farmers or essential to rural life. If fox control is required, farmers already have lawful, proportionate and humane means to address it. Organised fox hunting with packs of hounds is not, as was said earlier, an effective or humane method of wildlife management. It is the definition, in fact, of inefficiency. A chaotic chase involving dozens of dogs and riders pursuing a single animal cannot credibly be described as pest control. It is neither targeted nor evidence based and it results in extreme suffering.

The claim that fox hunting is central to farming or rural culture is also contradicted by the evidence. In fact, only around 2% of the population has ever participated in a fox hunt. As a sportsperson, I am not inclined to sanitise this pursuit by calling it a sport. Some 98% of people have no connection to it whatsoever - never have, never will - and the numbers will diminish. A practice engaged in by such a small minority cannot reasonably be described as essential to rural life. Farmers themselves have not demanded this practice be preserved. Many I know have raised serious concerns about hunts trespassing on land, damaging crops, frightening livestock and undermining biodiversity. This is not a harmonious rural tradition; it is an imposition that many rural communities actively oppose.

There is a class context to this too. Let us not forget that or pretend otherwise. There has always been something of the upstairs-downstairs about this and a nonsense we used to see in the stage Irishman depiction of fox hunting in the likes of "The Irish R.M." and so on. It is absolute nonsense and far from republican. The historical context of fox hunting in Ireland cannot be ignored. The Irish Masters of Foxhounds Association was established in 1845, during the Great Famine, and the practice itself is deeply rooted in colonial power structures. This is not a neutral or ancient Irish tradition; it is an imported phenomenon and a colonial blood sport imported and maintained by privilege.

From an animal welfare perspective, the harms associated with fox hunting are simply unavoidable. Foxes endure prolonged pursuit, intense fear and physiological stress before often being violently killed. This suffering is intentional and intrinsic to the activity. I am no agricultural expert and do not claim to be but I know gratuitous cruelty when I see it. Horses used in hunts are also placed under extreme physical and psychological strain. They are pushed to gallop long distances over uneven ground, jump obstacles at speed and suppress natural fear responses in chaotic environments. This exposes them to a high risk of injury, exhaustion, chronic stress and fatal accidents. Hounds are also subjected to welfare risks. They are bred, trained and worked in ways that prioritise performance over well-being, often resulting in injury, exhaustion and premature death. Their natural behaviours are exploited and they are placed in dangerous situations over which they have no control.

I have received messages from people I know and respect in recent days asking me to think of the hounds and what they do naturally and I have one message for people listening in. If these kinds of so-called rural pursuits are ended, they will evolve and they will change. That is an intrinsic part of nature, of who we are as human beings and what mammals do.

Supporters of fox hunting often argue that banning the practice would mean horses and hounds would no longer exist. This is a false dilemma, a false dichotomy. Ending a harmful practice does not require the destruction of the animals involved or make them obsolete in any way. Nature evolves, and their value and the value of each animal endures beyond their limited, in this context, economic function to some. This applies to dogs too.

The claims that fox hunting builds confidence in horses or resilience in humans are also not supported by behavioural science. High-stress environments actually inhibit learning. What is often labelled as bravery is more accurately explained by learned helplessness, a state associated with welfare risks and increased injury. While time in nature, physical activity and social connection are absolutely beneficial to mental health, none of these outcomes depend on the pursuit and the killing of wildlife. Ethical community-building and well-being must not be achieved through harm to sentient beings that cannot consent.

Fox hunting is frequently defended as essential to rural community life, yet participation requires significant financial and social capital, placing it beyond the reach of most people, certainly the people I represent. Presenting it as representative of rural Ireland obscures issues of exclusion and inequality and actually does the argument on the opposite side a disservice. Rural social cohesion is a legitimate policy goal, one I pursue in my everyday work, but it must be addressed through inclusive public infrastructure and services and opportunities, not through exclusive, harmful traditions.

This is not the 1800s; this is supposed to be a modern, sophisticated Republic. I speak for rural Ireland - a new, changing rural Ireland - as much as others do. As I said earlier, modern rural Ireland is not a monolith. The people there are not homogenous. It is a complex community with competing and different interests and, frankly, a lot of those in here who claim to have a monopoly on speaking for those in rural Ireland do rural Ireland a disservice and do not ever reflect the diversity in modern rural Ireland that we have today and the diversity of views.

This animal health and welfare Bill reflects growing recognition that hunting wild mammals with dogs is incompatible with modern welfare standards. Comparable jurisdictions, including the United Kingdom, have already enacted bans, as we know, even though the argument could very well be made that this is some part of a tradition in the UK, albeit an aristocratic, landed gentry one, that goes back centuries. Ireland would not be acting in isolation, therefore, but in line with its stated commitments to animal welfare and EU principles recognising animals as sentient beings.

I urge my colleagues to support this Bill. This is one of those occasions when the introduction of a free vote should be considered. Not to support the Bill would be to continue defending a cruel, unnecessary and, in our view, outdated practice that the Irish public has clearly rejected and will continue to reject. Fox hunting is not about farmers. It is not about rural life. It is, in our view, about cruelty and it is a pursuit that should be consigned to the bin of history and put out of its misery.

I thank Deputy Coppinger for this really important Bill. It is very timely, so I thank her for her work on it. The Social Democrats will 100% support her in the Bill and her efforts to ban fox hunting.

I will be very clear. Fox hunting is wrong, fox hunting is cruel and fox hunting has no place in the Ireland of today. I was really disappointed to hear what the Minister, Deputy Heydon, said in his speech. I expect the arguments put forward by the Government to be more rational. There was an incredible amount of misinformation provided in the Minister's speech. To be honest, it is something I would have expected from the Independent Members whom I have been debating on this issue over recent weeks. I had thought Fine Gael would provide something with a bit more humanity, a bit more compassion and a bit more rationality. Let us go through the different arguments.

The Minister said that the fact that Deputies who support this Bill have never met anyone who has been on a hunt undermines our case. I do not need to go on a hunt to know it is cruel. I do not need to go to a bullfight to know it is cruel. I do not need to go to see badger-baiting or to attend a dogfight to know they are cruel. If something is cruel, it is cruel. There is a fundamental basis for animal welfare that we should be applying in this country. It is incredible that the Minister referred to that in his speech.

I will move to the matter of rural versus urban Ireland, and this is a matter that the Minister of State, Deputy Healy-Rae, has put forward on numerous occasions. This is not a rural versus urban debate. This is a debate on animal welfare and what we consider to be acceptable in Ireland. Interestingly, since I have been talking about this, a huge number of people from rural Ireland have contacted me, as I am sure they have other Deputies, to express their outrage at fox hunting. They want it banned. A sheep farmer in Cashel said that many farming neighbours agree that the days of having large numbers of horses galloping through farmland in the wettest months of the year are long gone and that fox hunting as a means of curtailing the population is a fallacy.

A Wicklow constituent told me that a hunt passed through their local area and the hounds entered their garden. They split apart and savaged their beloved little dog, Isabelle, killing the dog on my correspondent's property.

Someone from a farming background in Cork told me that the notion that fox hunting is a method of controlling the fox population is ludicrous. They said that fox hunters do far more destruction to farming land and the countryside.

A zoologist in Wicklow, who is also from a farming background, said that hunting with hounds is one of the least effective methods of population control. Farmers have told me that their livestock have been traumatised.

Another man told me that he lives in rural west Cork and there are a couple of practical points that sway him totally against fox hunting. He said that no insurance company will give cover. He said that damage is done to farmers' land and property by fox hunting. He also mentioned the harm to horses, cattle and sheep that no one talks about, and attacks on domestic animals, such as household pets, which have happened. Hunts, in fact, tell you to lock up your pets.

I do not know who the Minister of State listens to when he purports to represent rural Ireland. Those are the voices from rural Ireland that I am hearing. They are the voices to which I will listen.

The argument about this being a good means of controlling foxes is crazy and ridiculous. It is the most inefficient means of controlling foxes. If you have a fox on your land that is causing problems to your livestock, there are alternative methods, such as shooting, that will be a lot more efficient than calling on packs of hounds and hunters to come through your land, through your ditches, wrecking your fences and crops and disturbing all the farm animals on your property. That is no argument whatsoever.

I accept that there are a small number of people who have done this over many years and that there could be an impact on their livelihoods. However, change happens and we have to move with the change. I ask those people to find an alternative to fox hunting. Drag hunting will provide the same job opportunities, the same tourism opportunities and the same opportunities for local hoteliers to get business. It is a controlled method that means you are not wrecking farmers' lands. You would only be going onto farmers' lands if they want you on it. There is no cruelty involved. I ask them to find an alternative to fox hunting.

The Minister said that people should not only be listening to the loud voices. The reason there are loud voices is that there are so many people in this country who do not want fox hunting. Rather than dismiss those loud voices, I ask the Minister of State to listen to them. He should be led by his constituents. His constituents have been on to me asking for this practice to be banned.

I thank Deputy Coppinger. I welcome the fact that Sinn Féin has finally been placed in a situation whereby it has had to declare its position on the issue. It is disappointing. The mask has slipped for Sinn Féin in this regard. I will pass to my colleagues.

It is profoundly wrong to chase a defenceless animal to exhaustion and have it ripped apart by dogs and call that a sport. It is a barbaric and cruel practice that has no place in a modern society. It is a throwback to empire. It is a loathsome practice. Those are not my words. They are the words of backbenchers from Sinn Féin, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. Those words ring true and matter. They should be reflected in votes. Tonight, in an act of indifference or cruelty, it appears those backbenchers will come into this Chamber and cast their votes against restricting fox hunting and for barbarism. It is truly galling to see three parties founded against colonialism supporting a colonial practice such as this.

Fox hunting is not just inhumane savagery. It is also one of the last cultural vestiges of that colonialism. Local gentry are cosplaying as British aristocrats in an imported tradition that no Celt, Gael or Brit now engages in. The attempts to justify it as a form of pest control are ludicrous. Imagine the ridicule if Michael O'Leary and Dermot Desmond were to don loincloths and spears and go hunting for deer in the Phoenix Park and then justify it as pest control. It is so outrageous that it would be laughable if it were not the argument of the three big parties today. It is just wrong. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Social Democrats know what is wrong and what is right. The barbaric torture of animals is wrong. Upholding cruel colonial practices is wrong. Blood sports for the pleasure of the wealthy are wrong. Fox hunting is wrong and the parties and Deputies who vote against this Bill are wrong, too.

I thank Deputy Coppinger for bringing forward this Bill to ban fox hunting. It might seem unlikely that a city TD such as me from Dublin South-Central would have any interest in what is constantly being said affects rural areas and communities. If you bear with me for a minute, I will explain my position.

When I was a child, I split my time between suburban Dublin, in Deputy Coppinger's constituency, and rural Cavan, where my granny and her people are from. My mother lived there for the last part of her life. I spent many weekends in Cavan with my grand-uncle, driving a tractor, going to fields, feeding cattle, helping on the farm and moving cattle from field to field. As a suburban young person, I also spent my weeks going to school, youth theatre, friends' houses and hanging out on the estate. In those two parts of life, rural and suburban, we loved our animals. That was true of people on both sides. It has nothing to do with where you live. It is about loving and respecting animals.

The Minister said earlier that foxes are not a protected species. That does not mean they can be treated the way they are treated in a fox hunt. They have feelings. They are animals. They have feelings and are, therefore, capable of feeling fear and dread caused by being chased by humans, horses and hounds.

Fox hunting is banned in the UK, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium. It really is time that Ireland evolved and stopped this cruel and barbaric activity.

This issue once again exposes a growing divide in the country between those who live and work in rural Ireland and those who comment on it from a distance with little understanding of what life is actually like on the ground in rural Ireland. Foxes are a real and present danger to livestock and livelihoods and, increasingly, to public safety. Only last week, there were reports of a woman in Cavan being attacked by a fox. That is not something that rural families ever expected to hear. It is, however, a warning of what happens when the wildlife population is allowed to spiral out of control. Farmers see the consequences every year. Lambs are slaughtered during the lambing season. Hens are ripped limb from limb in a single night. Years of careful breeding are wiped out without warning. This is the reality of nature when it is not properly managed.

Rural Ireland is a managed landscape and always has been. Without management, it does not magically balance itself but deteriorates. We only have to look at the deer crisis to see the consequences. Animals are roaming the roads. Cars are destroyed and families are put at risk with no accountability. Do we really want the same situation with foxes? Do we want sick and starving animals wandering roadways and no longer fit to source food? Do we want them dying slow deaths that serve no one? City-based TDs, who know nothing about this reality, are attacking rural traditions and practices that exist precisely to keep the balance and protect both animals and people.

One of the loudest anti-rural voices is that of Deputy Coppinger, who claims to speak for communities.

What does it say about her commitment when she had no difficulty in objecting to a development of over 200 apartments in her own city? This type of objection is devastating to communities where people across the country are desperate for a roof over their heads. We are told she cares about communities, yet she denigrates the Common Agricultural Policy, a policy designed to keep farm families afloat, families who have worked the same land for decades, often centuries. She dismisses it as part of what she calls a global capitalist system of agriculture. That kind of ideological thinking has a long and dark history. Wherever it has been imposed on farming communities it has driven families off their land, stripped them of ownership and handed agriculture over to the state in so-called communal systems that resulted in starvation and the deaths of millions. That is the ideology of Deputy Coppinger. That is what this so-called Bill is based on, anti-farmer, anti-rural poisonous ideology that wants to punish those who work to own land and work that land for the betterment of themselves and their communities. Rural Ireland does not take lectures from extremists.

I watched everyone standing up here with notebooks in front of them when speaking. What they were saying was rhetorical stuff. It was the same stuff coming out of their mouths. There is no urban and rural divide here. I have people from an urban area who come out hunting in our area and they have done it for decades. I am from a farming background. I live in an area where there is cover behind me. The hunt comes through the back of our land every season. I have seen the devastation a fox has caused when a cow was calving outside in the field. I have seen what it has done to lambs. I have also seen what the hunt has done in curtailing foxes in an area. In our own place, we had two sets of hens. We always kept hens. They were actually savaged so now I do not have hens. People are saying the foxes are making their way into the city and they are. People are feeding foxes in the city. If that is what they want to do, that is what they want to do. If there is overpopulation and no hunting, that will mean we cannot defend against what a fox does to our animals. A woman in Cavan got six stitches during the week defending her chickens. We are not talking about all day, every day. There is a hunting season as there is a slurry season. There is a season for everything. People stood up here today and said they are not from a veterinary background. There are vets involved in this. The veterinary service is involved in this.

The Social Democrats last year tried to ban greyhound hunting. They were on the television saying it was desperate. They were out at the front of the House saying they had a greyhound but it was not a greyhound at all, it was a lurcher.

A lurcher.

They did not even know what a greyhound was. The same thing is happening here today. They do not understand the process that is happening here. They did not follow the science. They are talking about a minority of people, saying 2%. What percent of us look after us in terms of the Garda? If we look at a percentage, how many people in this country are medical people? They look after a population of millions. The Deputies are talking about percentages. They should get their facts right before they start discussing things they know nothing about.

On a point of order, I am just wondering when we are discussing this, can we just ask the Deputies to state whether they have any financial involvement in hunts or the provision of services for hunting?

I have none.

I have none. I have never been to one in my life.

That is all I am asking.

That is a scurrilous accusation to be making.

It is hardly scurrilous to ask for transparency, Minister.

It is of course.

If that is what the Minister of State is worried about, I would be concerned about that. It is transparency and it is Members' responsibility in this Chamber to be clear about any financial benefit.

It is not her speaking time. Respect the House.

It is just because you did not like what he said. He hurt you in what he said, that is all that is wrong with you, because he told the truth.

Please take your seats. Minister, please take your seat

A disgrace.

He told the truth. The truth hurts.

Please, Minister. Deputy Gogarty has two and a half minutes.

They are very objective over there.

I ask the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach to give Deputy Fitzmaurice the extra time because of this. To be clear, foxes are wild animals. They can be dangerous. They carry leptospirosis. They have tapeworm and toxoplasmosis. They will bite humans if they are hungry. They will attack domestic animals like cats and dogs if they can get away with it. I even heard a story about one robbing a spice bag off someone recently in an urban area. They will kill lambs, especially weak lambs after birth. Foxes are hunters. They are predators. Members have heard the phrase "sly as a fox." That is because they are clever animals. They are not domestic pets, although some people feed them in urban areas, as Deputy O'Donoghue said.

Having said all that, they are dumb animals but not as dumb as the animals that hunt them. There is no rational argument for killing a defenceless wild animal for pleasure. It is the worst form of abuse. It is not for anything else. It is to get off on watching those hounds tear the fox apart, nothing else. It is uncivilised. It is on par with genital mutilation and the way people used to get away with whacking their partners in domestic abuse cases. It is a tradition but one that is long past its time. As others have said, there are alternatives. We have the drag hunting, the clean boot hunting. You can get on your horse, have your rural pursuits, ride on the land, chase, have all your social interactions, dress up and have hunt balls. You can have everything except tearing the fox apart. I am not against culling the fox population if it is causing danger to people but this is not about culling the fox population, it is about having pleasure at the expense of an animal.

I am particularly disappointed there is no open vote on this with Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and especially Sinn Féin. One of my constituency colleagues talked last week about his partner's beautiful whippet called Padmé that brings so much joy to their lives, yet he told me also that he would not be opposing greyhound racing because that is a working man's sport and he said he would take the hit. Fox hunting could not be described as a working man's sport but Sinn Féin is still going to take the hit. Instead of tiocfaidh ár lá, it is tally-ho chaps, let us keep it going and keep the vestiges of the British Empire. Let us cop on, have a free vote and get rid of this barbaric practice.

I have no financial or other interest in hunting and do not even own a gun. I cannot be accused of being lopsided because of it. A lot of people would not even know what neosporosis is. A farmer in rural Ireland whose cows are aborting will know all about it. It comes from foxes where overpopulation happens. We come from a managed landscape. We saw a few years ago, from Kerry to Donegal, throughout the country, the problem of the overpopulation of deer. People driving on the roads had to dig into their own insurance or their own pockets because of the overpopulation of deer. There were herds of deer running around the country. We have to keep things controlled. For me, as someone who would not have a gun, if your sheep is lambing and you are out at night, it is not a great sight to see - the Deputies talked about all the things that happen the fox - the head of your lamb gone or most of your lamb eaten. For people who are genuinely interested in making sure there is a viable amount of everything in a managed landscape, do they want to see an old fox waddling along the road not able to even get enough food for itself? I see Senator Brady over there. He highlighted the person in Cavan who thought the fox was going to be a nice tame animal that would be their pet and had to get five stitches. Tell that to them.

In cities at the moment, people are feeding foxes. It is trying to tame a wild animal. It does not happen. You bring them three quarters of the way there and they will snarl back at you and catch you. You need to live in the rural areas to understand them. People ask why there is hunting, gun clubs or whatever. The farmer who is affected - when they go out in the morning and see the lamb or whatever gone - they have to contact someone. You do not just run up and see the fox running up the field.

It happened hours ago. What we need is for them to come at weekends to make sure that they find the problem in the area. Overpopulation is a major problem.

I am glad to get the opportunity to talk on this very important matter. I will not be voting for a ban on fox hunting. For fear that people think that there is an urban-rural divide, there is no such thing down the country. Maybe there is somebody inside the Pale here who do not understand rural Ireland, but in rural Ireland we have towns that depend on the farming community, including sheep farmers and cattle farmers. When we saw everything else close down during the virus, the one thing that kept the country moving forward was the farming community. Different things have been hurting the farmers continuously over the years, including foxes. I recall my grandmother's time when she used to have a few turkeys for Christmas. It was her money when she would sell them. Some of her turkeys were taken from her one Christmas. That meant some of her income that she was depending on was not there for her because a fox took away two of her turkeys that she was feeding since July or August. This is happening continuously.

A good friend of mine, Andrew in Killarney, had 13 hens. He was seeing after them, minding them, feeding them and being very careful with them. He came home one evening and 12 of the hens were gone. That is the gospel truth. For Pat up the road, it is the same story. He had ducks. He makes a few pounds from ducks at the fairs and stuff like that. His ducks are constantly being taken out by the foxes. I had someone contact me the other day who had their two lovely cats taken by the fox. I do not mind whether it is considered a financial interest or not, but it is an interest. At one stage, my son Dan had 18 lambs taken this year in the spring by the foxes. Whether it is hunters, shooters or whoever takes out the fox, I appreciate them for that. Farmers appreciate them for that. I cannot understand why these people who are so concerned about the foxes are not concerned about the hens when they are tor alive. They are not concerned about the lambs when their heads are torn off, their legs are gone and they are riddled. They are poor defenceless little lambs. I do not know what reason people have got against those who never do any harm to anyone and only make a few pounds for the farmers who are struggling.

Their sheep payment has been reduced a small bit this year. We are hoping we will get back again next year. One of the things that the Deputy who is bringing forward this Bill said was that the farmers are all right because they get grants. They do not a grant to replace the money that the lamb would have made. That is the gospel truth. When the Ministers are answering the contributions, I want them to address that issue. They do not get a grant when the lamb is taken away, riddled, half eaten, or half left there. I want the Deputy to withdraw that remark. Deputies said the cause of the foxes doing harm was development. These same Deputies do not want the development of houses. They are objecting them. They are here by the way for the good of the people; they are not. It is very wrong to throw it around that way because that is not the truth. People need houses, but we need farmers. We have not got many people on the hill sides sheep farming because sadly that is not paying. Many farmers have cut down the number of ewes that they keep because they have not got the wherewithal to traverse these massive hills and valleys, look after them, dose them and all the cost that goes with that. They have cut numbers, but they need to have what they have and not have it taken by the fox.

It is wrong to be coming in here trying to hurt someone. My late father used to say, "If you can't help someone, please don't hurt them." I take that with me every road that I go on. I do not ever intend to do that. I hope that I can make something better for someone every day when I get up and before I go to bed at night again. I certainly would not be trying to stop farmers killing foxes because we know what the foxes do. It is their psyche or whatever it is. They do not need the lambs they kill because they leave some of them behind and tear them asunder. I cannot understand why the Members who intend to bring in this Bill are so vehement about this and at the same time they have no concern for the poor lambs, hens or ducks that people work hard to rear. To see them taken in a flash, they come back they are gone and dead. Lately, there were two men who went down the fields because the fox was after taking some of the hens. When they were coming up, they met the fox again with another hen in his mouth. That is the truth.

We must vote against this. I am appealing to all the Deputies from around the country who depend on farmers for their votes. Now is the time to come out to stand with the farmers and vote against this Bill. It is not fair and it is not right. To those Members on the other side who are trying to bring this forward, if they cannot help someone, why are they trying to hurt them? It is wrong to do that to people. These poor farmers down the country, up the country and in the west of the country are depending on lambs and to a lesser extent people are depending on hens to have their own eggs. They like to do that. Why are we trying to hurt them by bringing in a Bill banning fox hunting? It is totally and absolutely wrong. They should be ashamed of themselves to be even thinking about it and talking about it, never mind bringing in a Bill here. It is a sad way our country has gone.

We have a lot of important issues to debate here. We should not have to debate this. Seeing as we have to debate it, we will debate it. We will vote against it tonight. I assure people out there that I will be voting against this fox hunting Bill introduced by Deputy Coppinger and whoever else is standing with her because it is not fair on rural Ireland. When I say rural Ireland, I mean the towns and villages because those people depend on the farmers as well for their income. They all get a bit out of it. If the lamb goes down the field in the fox's mouth or is torn alive and left for dead, no one will get anything out of them. This issue of a financial interest has been mentioned. It is as if we are betting on some stock exchange or something and that we were going to gain from it. It is such a ridiculous statement for Deputy Whitmore to make saying that we have a financial interest. We have an interest in the well-being of farmers around the country. We have an interest in the people who keep poultry, depend on them and put money into them. These things do fall out of the sky. It is very sad when if you go into a field and see the ewe going around the field looking for her lamb, baaing and upset. The Deputies have no interest in that. How is that? I cannot understand that or appreciate that. I appeal to the Ministers to ensure that the Government to a man and woman votes against this fox hunting Bill, as I will be doing.

To make it very clear, the Government will 100% oppose this Bill as it is proposed.

I will call it out for what it is. It is extremely misleading. I would go so far as to say it is a con job. I will tell the House why. As currently drafted, the Bill proposes to ban all hunting for foxes, regardless of the purpose of that hunting and the manner in which it is carried out. That has been ignored today several times by several speakers. They have given the impression that this is about people up on horses-----

It is.

It is.

-----with red coats shouting "Tally-ho". That is rubbish. That is not what this Bill proposes to ban and the people who are saying otherwise obviously have not read it in its entirety. If farmers have lambs outside in a field and want to protect them, this Bill would make them criminals tomorrow if they shot foxes tonight.

It does not say that at all.

That is exactly the legal opinion regarding what is proposed here.

Put down an amendment.

I will make that very clear.

Table an amendment.

I was not going to talk about Deputy Gogarty at all but, seeing as he is interrupting me, I will say that he completely misled everybody here. He obviously did not read the Bill because he does not know what he is talking about.

Put down a Committee Stage amendment.

If he did, he would not have said what he said. A lot has been said about the 73% of people who say that they do not want this type of fox hunting to continue. There is an important statistic left out of that, which is that 98% of those people said they had never seen a hunt or foxes being killed. They never saw anything. All they are doing is listening to media reports about this. These 73% are talking about something that 98% of them know absolutely nothing about in the first instance.

I take issue with a comment Deputy Coppinger made earlier with regard to hill farming. She spoke as if she knew what she was talking about but unfortunately she obviously does not because she mentioned a word that Deputy Danny Healy-Rae mentioned a minute ago, that is, "grants". Is she living in the real world? She seems to be suggesting that, if a farmer goes into a field tomorrow and finds dead lambs - when I say dead, their throats will have been pulled apart by the Deputy's beautiful foxes and their limbs will have been torn asunder in the same way as hens will be - it is all right because the farmers will get a grant. That is rubbish. They will lose out financially. It is not just that. The Deputy said nothing about the torture the lambs, hens and geese go through. I heard it said earlier that we should compare dogs with foxes. This is wrong, dangerous and absolutely misleading. I was shocked to hear Deputy O'Gorman speak earlier but, then again, his lack of knowledge is exemplified by the Green Party when it comes to being out of touch with rural issues. This is not the first time he has showed a lack of knowledge about issues such as this.

I do not welcome this debate but I welcome the fact that we will be able to vote the Bill down tonight. It is part of a constant attack, whether it is on the greyhound industry, horse racing or fishing. The Deputies all seem to hate the term "rural pursuits" all of a sudden. Why do they hate it? It means so much to so many people. It is like shooting. Maybe the Deputies think it is wrong to shoot grey crows. Do they know what a grey crow does to a defenceless lamb? If it is in any way weak or sick, the grey crow will come down from the sky and pull out its two eyes. The Deputies do not want to hear that. They think the person who goes out to shoot grey crows is wrong. Along with others, they want to continue attacking rural Ireland. Let us take the deer for example. People are now realising that we have an overpopulation of deer in this country. We have to reduce the figure by 75%. This is management of rural Ireland. You cannot just leave everything go as it is. If the Deputies had their way, they would do away with live exports, pig farming and the whole idea of people rearing chickens and all of that. They are against any type of farming, including intensive dairy farming.

I heard Deputy Paul Murphy talking about this cruel and barbaric affair. He does not seem to care at all about what the foxes do and the cruelty they inflict on other animals. Members spoke about badgers earlier on. Do they realise that our senior Minister is engaged on the most important issue of protecting our herd from TB at the moment?

The badgers have nothing to do with it. It is a waste of money.

The badgers are absolutely a leading contributor to the spread of TB.

That is nonsense. There are loads of papers on this.

Again, this is something the Deputy knows nothing about.

The Government is wasting our money-----

It is scientific fact.

-----on killing badgers.

Silence. Listen to the Minister of State.

It is a scientific fact but, of course, the other side do not want to hear that because they think the badgers are beautiful. Tell that to a farmer like the good friend of mine who yesterday saw 17 in-calf heifers having to leave his yard because they had contracted TB. Why? It was because of badgers.

That is absolute nonsense. It is not badgers. It is a waste of public money.

We have to eradicate badgers.

The Minister of State is going to sell them out on Mercosur.

We have to eradicate our deer. We have to manage rural Ireland. I have heard people talking about colonial pursuits. Again, they are trying to give the public the message that this is only about people up on horses running after the poor fox. It is not. It is about the poor farmer who has to get up in the middle of the night to try to identify, follow, track and kill a fox because it is killing his or her lambs. That is what everybody over there wants to ignore. Some people's speeches have been extremely misleading.

I recognise that Deputy Cronin actually did read the Bill. Her speech was entirely her own opinion but at least she knew what she was talking about, unlike other Members who just seem to be taking the narrative put out there.

I reserve a very special word for Deputy Whitmore. I am sorry that, like a wasp, she came in, stung and ran but I will respond to her. On behalf of myself and Deputy Danny Healy-Rae, I will say one thing to her. This is the lady who is so anti-farming that, at a critical time when the Minister, Deputy Heydon, was doing everything he could to lead a campaign to maintain a nitrates derogation, she did everything she could to sabotage and undermine that. She spoke to the media and made a presentation to Commissioner Roswall in which she tried to completely undermine our hardworking farmers but she failed, just as she will fail tonight. The reason I reserve a special word for her, on behalf of myself and Deputy Danny Healy-Rae, is that she mentioned that she was contacted by some of our constituents. That same Deputy actually said on the record that she wonders who we represent. I will remind her of a small fact. Up to 30% of the electorate who went out to vote voted for a Healy-Rae. She can stick that in her pipe and smoke it. You cannot go against the electorate. They are the bosses. Could she say the same thing about herself, her political party or any of the Deputies over there? If they got 30% of the vote, they would be in orbit.

When I am on a roll, I will take them out one by one. I heard what Deputy Eoin Hayes said about the Brits. He was talking absolute rubbish, again because he did not read or understand the Bill and does not care about the farmers who want to protect their livestock.

Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned something else in a very knowledgeable and sound way. He mentioned the diseases foxes spread. He said that cows can lose calves as the result of contracting diseases. He was right to raise that matter. I do not know if he was the only Member to raise it.

On a point of order, I raised it before him.

What has happened here over the past couple of weeks has been completely misleading. Again, what she is trying to do has been misportrayed. She is attacking rural Ireland. She is attacking our farming community.

Who is "she"?

The people who are with her are misrepresenting what they are actually trying to do.

I am delighted that they will lose the vote tonight and the people who want to continue killing foxes will be entitled to do so.

Thank you, Minister.

She will not take away their pursuit.

You are out of touch.

That finishes the Government slot. I now ask the proposer of the Bill, Deputy Coppinger, to make her closing remarks.

We will leave aside the dripping misogyny that we have had to sit and listen to for the past few minutes from somebody who is sitting in the Department of agriculture talking about Deputy Whitmore and about myself. However, I will deal with the issues the Government and the other parties have raised. It is very clear that they are trying to make a culture war out of something that is very simple. It is about cruelty to the fox. None of the speakers who spoke against the Bill have even bothered to deal with whether or not they think it is cruel to the fox. All of the other extraneous issues have been talked about. I absolutely agree that rural life is in crisis. They may be surprised to think that. However, it is in crisis for a lot of reasons.

You know nothing about it.

How do you know what I know?

Deputy, no interruptions please.

I actually do not live in a city. I live in a suburb. I spent my childhoods in the country. It is how I feel when the Deputy starts talking about women, women's rights and women's bodies. I just have to sit and listen to it. However, when I want to talk about rural areas, all of a sudden I do not have a right. Just cop on. We are here as national TDs for national issues. We can raise whatever we like. Rural life is in crisis because of the FDI economic model that this Government has encouraged from day one. I refer to centralisation. I do not agree with everything being centralised around Dublin or around Leinster. I do not agree with Dublin Airport's passenger cap being just lifted, for example. We should be decentralising. I do not agree with the lack of infrastructure and I do not agree with the housing crisis, which is making it very difficult for people to have homes-----

That is why you object to houses, is it?

-----in rural Ireland.

Minister, please.

I also do not agree with pubs, post offices and all of those things being lost in rural areas but those are the policies that are led by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael with whom the Minister of State is in government.

And that is why you are an objector.

Minister, please.

I want to raise some of the alternatives to fox hunting because I did not get a chance to mention them. To be clear, drag hunting is something with which I have absolutely no issue. It allows people to go out on horses or with their dogs. They follow an artificial scent across agreed routes. Clean boot hunting is another one that is being done in the UK. What this Bill does not deal with is a number of things. It does not deal with shooting. Somebody can shoot a fox. The Bill does not mention it. When you are drafting a Bill, if something does not get mentioned, it means it is not in it. We heard issues from Sinn Féin and that it was its members' position at its Ard-Fheis, that they have had a debate. Gun clubs were mentioned continually. This is nothing to do with gun clubs; this is about fox hunting. It was also said that people do not go out with a cruel intent. It does not matter about their intent. If the end object is that a fox will be caught and killed in a prolonged way, it is cruel.

Drag hunting is an alternative Sinn Féin might argue for at its Ard-Fheis. I do not agree with this thin end of the wedge argument. We are dealing with one issue. We are dealing with fox hunting. Members vote on that and on that alone and they should leave the deliberate misrepresentation out of it.

Deputy Kenny said he has had a groundswell of support. The groundswell of support has come from people in favour of the Bill. Let us be clear about that. There has been massive social media support and from the number of people who have got behind this in the seven months since I raised this on First Stage. Deputy Cronin talked about her personal beliefs colliding with her party, about how she has to go in and vote for this because united Ireland is her priority and she is involved in a collective struggle. First, there was a suggestion that I am splitting the left by raising stuff. I am going to come in and raise issues to do with anyone who is oppressed or animals that are being brutally treated. I cannot wait around for Sinn Féin to change its policy; I am sorry. If I had waited for that, we would not have had repeal. I was bringing repeal Bills in here. Sinn Féin was sitting socially conservatively on issues. I cannot wait for it to catch up. That is not why I was elected. I was elected to push things forward, not sit and wait for the rest to catch up. The only people who are splitting the left is people who do not agree that animal rights is a priority issue for the left. People who are serious about a progressive left would want to question why they cannot convince their party conference to get rid of fox hunting. They really should be able to push how important that is.

Deputy Carthy talked about regulation. The problem is it is regulated and as we can see it is a free for all in reality because there is so much of it happening. I will finish that point by saying that TDs were mentioned because a number of TDs have told people when they were going to vote last year that they were against blood sports and fox hunting. People are absolutely entitled to contact those TDs and ask them to vote with us tonight. To say we are somehow targeting TDs, people should get a grip here. It included people in Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael but it just so happens that a lot of TDs in Sinn Féin gave people the impression that the party was against fox hunting and against blood sports. Sinn Féin did not have its Ard-Fheis in the autumn. I understand it had to postpone it. That was a good reason to allow a free vote tonight as the party did not have time to change its position. However, everybody who voted last year - most people, certainly - would have expected that Sinn Féin was in line with this Bill.

Regarding the hostility to rural life that is being talked about, there is a sell-out coming up on Mercosur and other EU issues. This Government is going to sell out the people it drums up in rural areas. To talk about fox hunting is a nice distraction for the Government, making it out that it is the big bad people from Dublin coming here taking all of their livelihoods away. I recognise that people do have livelihoods involved in this. I am absolutely open to discussion but I think there are alternatives.

They can get a grant.

I explained about the grant. The Minister of State obviously misunderstood what I said.

No, I understood-----

What I said-----

You do not understand your own Bill.

No interruptions please, Minister.

It is my time to speak now. I know the Minister of State finds that hard.

The other issue is why we are talking about this now. The reason is that I get Private Members' time one and half times a year. That is why we are talking about it now. It is not a plot to make anyone look bad. It was either now or some time later. The reason it was put forward now was that it became a big issue in the Presidential election and I really thought a number of people would have caught up. On the thing about a grant, we had a briefing here last week. People from rural areas were there. We had a number of people here, such as Frankie Ward who has produced booklets talking about how this can be integrated into farming life. He has done surveys among sheep farmers and has talked about ways to protect livestock. One of the issues I raised on the grant was in the context of allowing hill farmers, who may be more open, obviously, to their sheep being taken, to have grants to help protect their sheep. The Minister of State is in government now, so that would have been something he could have helped with.

There is a whole load of people who are going to come to the House tonight and press a button against this Bill. Some 80% of people are opposed to blood sports. Some 80% of people are opposed to fox hunting if you exclude the do-not-knows. It they are included, 73% were opposed to it in the last poll. They are from all around the country, rural and urban Ireland.

We have a problem in this House. Three of the big parties are going to come in here and vote the exact opposite of what most of the population wants. They can make up any excuse they like, that they are representing rural Ireland or whatever else but the reality is there. That was why I called for a free vote, to at least allow TDs, who have given the general public the impression that they will uphold what they said they stood for, to express that. This is not a rural-urban issue.

In conclusion, these are some of the comments from rural people who have contacted me. I mentioned Frankie Ward. Randal Plunkett is also here. I welcome the people who have attended - we have a packed Gallery - because we can see what an issue this is. Randal Plunkett, who runs the Dunsany nature reserve, has talked about the battle he has had getting these fox hunters to agree to keep off his land. They completely ignored him, he has gone to the police and nothing happens. That is the experience of loads of people throughout rural Ireland. I have testimony from a farmer in County Waterford as well about how they arrived unannounced on horseback or on foot.

There are complaints about the Comeragh harriers. I could go on but I only have 15 seconds left. There is similar testimony from rural Galway.

People in rural Ireland do not support fox hunting. The Minister of State has interests in tourism and maybe he is gaining financially from this, but there are very few people doing so in rural Ireland. There are other pursuits that could be encouraged to replace it.

That is fairly pathetic now.

We need to support what 80% of the population wants.

That is fairly pathetic but I would expect nothing better.

In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time this evening.