I want to talk about community training centres, CTCs, and the pay negotiations that are under way for them. I have spoken about this before. I am very passionate about CTCs. I have seen the major benefits these centres have for the young people who are in them in terms of their ability to learn, progress and gain self-esteem they may have lost in other education facilities. I would like to know how pay negotiations are going for those staff members.

I thank Deputy Cummins. I share her high regard for the CTC sector and also for the very similar work Youthreach organisations perform. I have had the privilege of visiting both in my role on a number of different occasions. I attended the Irish Association of Community Training Organisations, IACTO, annual conference. I think it was in Athlone. It was certainly in the midlands. I attended that event, spoke with the IACTO executive and addressed the membership. It was a really positive event which I was pleased to be able to engage with. I have a great interest in that area.

In terms of the pay negotiations, I do not want to trespass on the functions of the Department of public expenditure, which is leading the negotiations in that regard. However, I am aware of some advances and some progress made. I do not want to go into great detail on the record in the Dáil for fear of misquoting or misattributing a figure somewhere because it would be unhelpful to the process were I to do that.

I will share my view that CTCs and Youthreach perform similar functions and it would be desirable to strengthen both by ní neart go cur le chéile - being stronger together. There is a sort of consolidation exercise in a very positive way that could be performed there in terms of bringing them together. I have engaged with some CTCs on that initiative already. It is something I have called out in my tertiary strategy, which I brought to Cabinet on Tuesday. There are several actions in that strategy, close to 100. One of them is to look at a consolidated strategy that would allow CTCs to enjoy effectively the same rights and entitlements as the Youthreach centres currently enjoy, in a way that promotes them as a common entity or certainly as a common mode of educational delivery. There is such a similarity across the two services that it would make sense to consolidate in a way that gives both a greater platform.

I do not want to jeopardise any negotiations that are going on either, but I am aware of the frustrations people in the sector have. People are leaving CTCs because they can no longer afford to live on the wages they receive. They feel disrespected and not recognised. I am glad, as I think others will be, to hear the Minister express respect and understanding of how important CTCs are. I am a little concerned about the use of the term "consolidation strategy". I hope that does not mean CTCs are going to be replaced with Youthreach. I hope it means both will be strengthened, as the Minister has said.

Another important point as regards Youthreach and CTCs is that the wages of another cohort of people, namely, staff in the local training initiatives, LTIs, some of whom were in front of the further and higher education committee today, are even worse than those of CTC staff. In fact, I was shocked to learn they want to move to CTC scales. I asked why they do not want to move to Youthreach scales. I obviously do not work in the Department of public expenditure. These are people who are working with a very vulnerable cohort of students. We need to respect and support those staff members to the best of our ability in order that we keep them in place, given all the experience they have.

I completely agree with the Deputy. In terms of the vulnerable cohort of students, part of my political philosophy is to take a progressive approach by giving most support to people who need it most and making targeted interventions. That goes to the heart of the issue, in terms of the learners attending Youthreach, a CTC or an LTI. I have had the privilege of meeting many such learners. In fact, I have a piece of art that was put together by a learner in Kilkenny Youthreach. It now has pride of place on the wall of my office across the corridor.

The stories of each learner are unique and different. They are often inspiring and challenging. One of the points made to me by the educators in the centres is that there is not a homogenous group. There are many different people coming through with many different stories to tell. Many of them have challenges, all of a different nature. Many of them blossom when they are given an opportunity in a CTC or Youthreach centre. That is something I am very keen to continue to support.

I am pleading with whoever is making the decision. I have been told several times that the Department is not their employer. Notwithstanding that, as a member of the board of management of one CTC, I have to say we can only pay the staff on the scales that are provided and those scales are provided by the Department. A bit of guidance and some moving of the scales and terms and conditions for staff members would be fantastic.

As the Minister rightly said, there are vulnerable learners and they present as they present, are taken as they are and really thrive. However, that is because of the skill and dedication of the staff members. We have to do everything we can to ensure they have appropriate pay scales and there is a parity of esteem for all staff members, whether it is in Youthreach, the CTCs or the LTIs. There are a lot of initials there. The most important thing is that there is equality and equity among staff members to ensure they do not leave because without those skilled workers, the students will suffer, will not be able to progress and will not have the bright future they deserve.