On pay, I am being asked to ensure the representative bodies within the Defence Forces can have associate membership with ICTU, that is, to ensure that pay within the Defence Forces will be consistent with public sector pay policy. At the same time, I am being asked by the very same people to increase pay in the Defence Forces as though it was not a public sector pay policy issue at all. Let us have some consistency and honesty here. My view is that we need to address pay and conditions and allowances issues. We ne…

I might just respond to the working time directive question. There were questions from two Deputies; surely I should have double the time for my responses.

Should I not have double the time for the follow-up responses?

I appreciate that. Briefly, on the working time directive, which is an important issue we have discussed at length as we have moved through the barracks, we are making really good progress. The Government is fully committed to ensuring the working time directive will apply to the Defence Forces, but there will have to be exemptions in certain areas to facilitate military service and the role of the Defence Forces in the context of the work they do, such as on peacekeeping missions overseas or on patrol of the coast…

It is my job to make a decision, having considered all the issues and the legal advice. As I said, we will do that next week.

That is a fair question. I will come to the specifics of the issue after I have outlined my prepared contribution for the record. The Commission on the Defence Forces was established on foot of a commitment in the programme for Government. As Minister for Defence, I welcomed the publication of the report of the commission on 9 February. There is an ongoing requirement to consider whether the capabilities we maintain are appropriate, having regard to the security environment, the roles we wish the Defence Forces to …

I have spoken to the commission in some detail about this and, for what it is worth, while pay and conditions are a factor, they are by a long shot not the only factor with regard to people leaving the Defence Forces. Let us be clear on that. Let us also be clear that Deputy Barry and others want to ensure that the Defence Forces are part of the ICTU negotiations on public sector pay agreements that are to get under way in the coming weeks. The Deputy cannot have it both ways. He cannot say he wants to see signific…

They have not been locked out.

With all due respect, none of the representative bodies representing Defence Forces personnel are looking for the right to strike. What they have asked me to consider and what they have taken legal action on is the right to allow ICTU to negotiate on their behalf through their having associate membership of ICTU, which is a very different thing. We are looking at the legalities. I hope we will be in a position early next week to write to all of the interested parties to let them know the decision we have made on th…

That commitment to level of ambition 2 has not yet been confirmed by the Government. It is certainly my view, as Minister for Defence, that we have to be at least where the Commission on Defence Forces recommends that we need to be, rather than where we would like to be, to have at least a basic defence capacity. Let us not forget that the commission carried out its work and finalised its report before the war in Ukraine so the context has already changed. That is an important issue. Some of my colleagues in govern…

On the level of ambition, the commission deliberately put this back to the Government, saying “Here is what we think you should do but, of course, it is your choice from a policy and budgetary point of view.” With regard to the language the commission has used, level of ambition 1 is essentially maintaining the status quo but getting the establishment up to where it needs to be – by the way, the commission thinks that would mean an increased expenditure of about €57 million a year - and the commission is very blunt…

I thank the Deputy for that. I believe and hope I have the support of most parties in this House, even though sometimes we have a very abrasive political system here in terms of disagreement on policy and so on. I hope the vast majority in this House will support this because it will be for future Governments too and is not just about this Government. I hope we can listen to and take in what the commission has said to us because it is very direct and blunt. There is a need for fundamental modernisation, restructuri…

I have some sympathy for that but I also need to put on the record what has happened here so it is clear from the Government's perspective. The Deputy may be aware that, with the agreement of RACO, the specialised instructors allowance for officers was bought out under the defence sector collective agreement of the public service agreement 2013-2016, which was the Haddington Road agreement. There was a negotiated buy-out, essentially, of that specialist instructors allowance under a pay round discussion and negotia…

I have had long discussions with RACO on this issue. It has repeatedly raised it with me and that is fair enough. It has a slightly different version of what happened to specialist instructors' allowances. However, there is a broader question here that we must address. If we are going to be successful in recruiting the numbers we need to recruit and in maintaining standards in the Defence Forces, there will be a great deal of pressure on training within the Defence Forces in the context of upskilling and accommodat…

This is one of many issues on which we will have to work with the representative bodies. The scale of the reform, change, growth, expansion and investment that will have to be delivered in partnership between the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces will involve a great deal of disruption and change, all of it for the better. This is not about change that is downsizing for cost savings. It is the opposite. It is about upsizing in terms of capacity, people and resources. It is also about modernisation, chang…

The Defence (Amendment) Act 1990 and Defence Force Regulations S6 provided for the establishment of representative associations for members of the Permanent Defence Force. The associations that have since been established are RACO and PDFORRA. The conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force provides a formal mechanism for the determination of claims and proposals from the Permanent Defence Force representative associations relating to remuneration and conditions of service. Offici…

I am not sure it is fair to compare the work that customs officers do at sea with that of the Naval Service in terms of time at sea and so forth. It is quite different. However, I take the point. The truth is that it took us many months to negotiate the terms and conditions for the sea-going service commitment scheme because there was a legitimate concern in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that if everybody could avail of this, it would just be seen as a pay increase. We were looking for agreement o…

What I said to the representative bodies and the General Staff is that we would seek to provide clarity on the issue of associate membership of ICTU in the context of public sector pay talks. The Deputy might note that we are dealing with that issue well in advance of bringing the memorandum to Government on the Commission on the Defence Forces, which made a recommendation on this issue. We have separated that issue out because we know the timelines require us to provide clarity on it and justification for whatever…

Vote 36, defence, was allocated a gross funding provision of some €836 million for 2022. This allocation provides for the pay and allowances of more than 10,400 public service employees, the upgrade and replacement of essential military equipment and infrastructure, ongoing Defence Forces operational and standing costs, as well as funding in respect of Civil Defence and the Irish Red Cross Society. Gross expenditure to the end of April 2022 was some €230 million, representing 27% of the defence Vote allocation. Thi…

To be clear, we have no intention of giving money back at the end of this year. That is the reason we have an arrangement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We have a budget and Estimate for 9,500 personnel and we currently have more money than we need to cover pay and conditions because we are just over 1,100 people short of where we should be. However, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform knows and understands that we are short and has effectively given us the flexibility to divert u…